For anyone that's interested - the Alien front wheel conversion kit (- 36v Conversion Kit 26" & 700C) uses a brushed motor. This doesn't seem to be an issue on a day to day basis but of course does mean the brushes will need replacing eventually.
Alien 36V Conversion Kit
- Thread starter timdw
- Start date
Really? We all thought he used a Suzhou Bafang brushless motor in his kits. Sounds like he's changed. When did you buy the kit?
Cheers
Steve
Easiest way to tell is by how many wires are coming out of the hub - if there's just two then it's not brushless.
As an aside, according to my Maplin power monitor it took 0.26kWh to recharge my battery after riding 20 miles to work this morning. It takes 0.46kWh for a full charge so likely 35 miles assisted range.
As an aside, according to my Maplin power monitor it took 0.26kWh to recharge my battery after riding 20 miles to work this morning. It takes 0.46kWh for a full charge so likely 35 miles assisted range.
Needs clarifying, as Alien Online shop only lists controllers for "brushless motors" (checked today 16 Mar 09 - in case someone changes it).
Online Shop
So future spares may become a problem
.
Heinzmann insist on using brushed motors still, maybe there is a practical reason. I know the hub part of the SB motor is flawed resulting in less than perfect wheels, even if 99% of people would never notice.
Yes, the picture of the kit (http://www.alienbikes.co.uk/USERIMAGES/MAIN 36V KIT(1).JPG) also shows a brushless hub as you can see multiple wires coming out of it. Mine only has the two. Maybe he should start stocking replacement brushesNeeds clarifying, as Alien Online shop only lists controllers for "brushless motors" (checked today 16 Mar 09 - in case someone changes it).
Online Shop
So future spares may become a problem
.
It might explain why one owner of the Alien Men's Special who posted on here was finding more rolling resistance than others who bought earlier in the year. I believe brushed motors have significantly worse freewheel performance in general (possibly always).
The motor in my Alien "Special" is definitely brushless but has no freewheel. To me this is the critical issue. I'm sure there's room for different motor designs and each will have its own strengths and weaknesses but for application in a bicycle hub a built-in freewheel is essential IMO.
timdw have you got a freewheel in your brushed motor?
timdw have you got a freewheel in your brushed motor?
Re Alien 36V Conversion Kit
Hi i have been in touch with Alien today and i asked which motors he used on his Alien Gents Special Brushed or Brushless his reply was he uses both the choice is yours he said he prefered brushed as he found the motor was quieter. Has anybody had any experience with the Alien Gents Special it looks like a good bike to me.
I would value your feedback regards Sammy
Hi i have been in touch with Alien today and i asked which motors he used on his Alien Gents Special Brushed or Brushless his reply was he uses both the choice is yours he said he prefered brushed as he found the motor was quieter. Has anybody had any experience with the Alien Gents Special it looks like a good bike to me.
I would value your feedback regards Sammy
A quick update while I'm here - I've been to work and back four times, plus some other journeys makes about 200 miles on the kit. I'm pleased to report that there have been no problems at all and it's a pleasure to ride. It's true that it is nice and quiet - I haven't noticed anyone turning round to look to see what the noise is. I think it's quiet enough that most would assume it was dynamo or hub generator noise. I've now gone and bought a second hand one of these bikes which I'll ride to work next week. I'm very interested to find out what the time difference will be!
* Edit * Just remembered that I did have a problem - one of the spoke ends came loose and rattled around inside the double walled rim. Had to take the wheel, tyre, tube and rim tape out and shake it about to get it out. Was a little fiddly to get back in again but not that bad.
* Edit * Just remembered that I did have a problem - one of the spoke ends came loose and rattled around inside the double walled rim. Had to take the wheel, tyre, tube and rim tape out and shake it about to get it out. Was a little fiddly to get back in again but not that bad.
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It sounds like timdw got the brushless motored one to me (possibly Suzhou Bafang) and you got a brushed one which will probably have a lot more drag when pedalling but may be a bit faster from what I've heard. If freewheeling ability is impirtant to you I'd consider asking Alien to swap your bike for one with a brushless motor. You are within your rights sinch he claims that these bikes should perform just like a 'bit heavier' normal bike when pedalling normally.
EDIT: Sorry I just remembered you said that its definately brushless. In this case I think it is faulty if its not freewheeling well - send it back. It is very hard to notice any freewheel drag on the brushless motors although there IS some drag but most people appear only to notice when pedalling at 20mph+ over a fair distance.
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Here is what it says on their FAQ section of the website:
Q. Do you use Suzhou Bafang motors?
A. Yes, but for all the technically minded forum types out there, the SB brushless motor I now get supplied is the QSWXB as I got complaints regarding noise, especially under load, from customers using the SWX01 and the new one is certainly better. It also has a better gearing for hills in my opinion. I'm sure that there are those in the forums who will disagree with what I'm doing but the vast majority of customers simply want a nice quiet motor that will help up hills! And I'm afraid that in a democracy....
Q. Do you use Suzhou Bafang motors?
A. Yes, but for all the technically minded forum types out there, the SB brushless motor I now get supplied is the QSWXB as I got complaints regarding noise, especially under load, from customers using the SWX01 and the new one is certainly better. It also has a better gearing for hills in my opinion. I'm sure that there are those in the forums who will disagree with what I'm doing but the vast majority of customers simply want a nice quiet motor that will help up hills! And I'm afraid that in a democracy....
Freewheeled motors generally have the freewheel between the motor and the hub drive gears, so the motor type cannot influence the rolling resistance, whether brushed or not. The Powabyke brush motor goes one better and has the freewheel between hub and drive gear, so it has effectively no rolling resistance other then the wheel bearings, despite being a brushed type.
There's a lot of misunderstanding about the common brushless hub motors like those from Suzhou Bafang. In these the freewheel is between the motor and the orbital gears, and those gears run all the time the wheel is turning whether driven or not and create very real drag, despite the many claims they don't.
At the foot of the hill I live on there is a half mile stretch that looks flat but is in fact around about 1% downhill, and standard bikes accelerated to about 15 mph in still air will roll the entire length losing hardly any speed without pedalling. By contrast the various orbital geared hub motor bikes I've tried including my present two have all ground to a halt usually before the half way mark.
I finally proved this point about the roll resistance back in June 2007 when I started the conversion of my front motor Torq 1 into the rear motor T bike. Having taken the front motor wheel out ready to convert it to rear drive, I put the derailleur rear wheel into the forks and added a spare hub gear wheel I had into the rear to do that roll test with it as an ordinary bike.
It easily rolled to the end of that half mile losing virtually no speed at all, showing just how much the orbital gears in these hub motors do drag.
As the Torq 1, despite the Suzhou Bafang hub motor being well run in and perfectly set up, I always found it unpleasant to pedal without power on the flat at over 13 mph, with the extra effort required to pedal it over that for a normal bike rising as the speed increased, being very marked at 20 mph, that due to the orbital gear drag.
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Sprint motor
Flecc,
For interest, when I stripped down the "Sprint" motor on my Chopper I noticed that the freewheel was between the gears and the wheel. I must try to do some freewheel comparisons between the Chopper and the Bafang-motored
Quando.
Peter
Flecc,
For interest, when I stripped down the "Sprint" motor on my Chopper I noticed that the freewheel was between the gears and the wheel. I must try to do some freewheel comparisons between the Chopper and the Bafang-motored
Quando.
Peter
Here's the Sprint motor Peter:
and as you see, the orbital gears engage straight onto the hub rack gear so are engaged all the time and have to turn as the wheel turns. The freewheel to the centre cog from the motor only allows the motor to be stationary against the orbital gears. If it allowed the centre gear set to spin with the hub without the gears rotating, the motor would not be able to drive the wheel.
So it's the same as the SB type, and it's this understanding of the rotation where the misunderstanding always arises.
.
and as you see, the orbital gears engage straight onto the hub rack gear so are engaged all the time and have to turn as the wheel turns. The freewheel to the centre cog from the motor only allows the motor to be stationary against the orbital gears. If it allowed the centre gear set to spin with the hub without the gears rotating, the motor would not be able to drive the wheel.
So it's the same as the SB type, and it's this understanding of the rotation where the misunderstanding always arises.
.
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