Alien 36V Conversion Kit

For anyone that's interested - the Alien front wheel conversion kit (- 36v Conversion Kit 26" & 700C) uses a brushed motor. This doesn't seem to be an issue on a day to day basis but of course does mean the brushes will need replacing eventually.

For anyone that's interested - the Alien front wheel conversion kit (- 36v Conversion Kit 26" & 700C) uses a brushed motor. This doesn't seem to be an issue on a day to day basis but of course does mean the brushes will need replacing eventually.

 

Really? We all thought he used a Suzhou Bafang brushless motor in his kits. Sounds like he's changed. When did you buy the kit?

 

Cheers

Steve

Ordered it on 06/03/09, arrived on 11/03/09.

 

Looking on his website I can't find any references to brushless on there now whereas I'm pretty sure it used to.

I purchased a kit from AlienOcean in January 2009 & it is definately the brushless Bafang motor from what i have read on this site.

 

I can only assume he has changed the motors unless anyone knows any different ?

Easiest way to tell is by how many wires are coming out of the hub - if there's just two then it's not brushless.

 

As an aside, according to my Maplin power monitor it took 0.26kWh to recharge my battery after riding 20 miles to work this morning. It takes 0.46kWh for a full charge so likely 35 miles assisted range.

For anyone that's interested - the Alien front wheel conversion kit (- 36v Conversion Kit 26" & 700C) uses a brushed motor. This doesn't seem to be an issue on a day to day basis but of course does mean the brushes will need replacing eventually.

 

Needs clarifying, as Alien Online shop only lists controllers for "brushless motors" (checked today 16 Mar 09 - in case someone changes it).

 

Online Shop

 

So future spares may become a problem

.

Seems a bit of a shame and a backward step if true.....I always thought Alien were a good budget choice. Maybe some one should ask for clarification.

Seems a bit of a shame and a backward step if true.....I always thought Alien were a good budget choice. Maybe some one should ask for clarification.

Heinzmann insist on using brushed motors still, maybe there is a practical reason. I know the hub part of the SB motor is flawed resulting in less than perfect wheels, even if 99% of people would never notice.

Needs clarifying, as Alien Online shop only lists controllers for "brushless motors" (checked today 16 Mar 09 - in case someone changes it).

 

Online Shop

 

So future spares may become a problem

.

 

Yes, the picture of the kit (http://www.alienbikes.co.uk/USERIMAGES/MAIN%2036V%20KIT(1).JPG) also shows a brushless hub as you can see multiple wires coming out of it. Mine only has the two. Maybe he should start stocking replacement brushes

It might explain why one owner of the Alien Men's Special who posted on here was finding more rolling resistance than others who bought earlier in the year. I believe brushed motors have significantly worse freewheel performance in general (possibly always).

The motor in my Alien "Special" is definitely brushless but has no freewheel. To me this is the critical issue. I'm sure there's room for different motor designs and each will have its own strengths and weaknesses but for application in a bicycle hub a built-in freewheel is essential IMO.

 

timdw have you got a freewheel in your brushed motor?

Yes, definitely. If I wheel the bike backwards I can feel and hear the motor engaging which I can't if I push it forwards.

Re Alien 36V Conversion Kit

Hi i have been in touch with Alien today and i asked which motors he used on his Alien Gents Special Brushed or Brushless his reply was he uses both the choice is yours he said he prefered brushed as he found the motor was quieter. Has anybody had any experience with the Alien Gents Special it looks like a good bike to me.

I would value your feedback regards Sammy

There's a separate thread on the Alien "Special". It looks like two of us have actually got one. I'm not over the moon about mine but the other buyer was pleased.

A quick update while I'm here - I've been to work and back four times, plus some other journeys makes about 200 miles on the kit. I'm pleased to report that there have been no problems at all and it's a pleasure to ride. It's true that it is nice and quiet - I haven't noticed anyone turning round to look to see what the noise is. I think it's quiet enough that most would assume it was dynamo or hub generator noise. I've now gone and bought a second hand one of these bikes which I'll ride to work next week. I'm very interested to find out what the time difference will be!

 

* Edit * Just remembered that I did have a problem - one of the spoke ends came loose and rattled around inside the double walled rim. Had to take the wheel, tyre, tube and rim tape out and shake it about to get it out. Was a little fiddly to get back in again but not that bad.

Edited March 19, 200917 yr by timdw

There's a separate thread on the Alien "Special". It looks like two of us have actually got one. I'm not over the moon about mine but the other buyer was pleased.

 

It sounds like timdw got the brushless motored one to me (possibly Suzhou Bafang) and you got a brushed one which will probably have a lot more drag when pedalling but may be a bit faster from what I've heard. If freewheeling ability is impirtant to you I'd consider asking Alien to swap your bike for one with a brushless motor. You are within your rights sinch he claims that these bikes should perform just like a 'bit heavier' normal bike when pedalling normally.

 

EDIT: Sorry I just remembered you said that its definately brushless. In this case I think it is faulty if its not freewheeling well - send it back. It is very hard to notice any freewheel drag on the brushless motors although there IS some drag but most people appear only to notice when pedalling at 20mph+ over a fair distance.

Edited March 20, 200917 yr by The Maestro

Here is what it says on their FAQ section of the website:

 

Q. Do you use Suzhou Bafang motors?

 

A. Yes, but for all the technically minded forum types out there, the SB brushless motor I now get supplied is the QSWXB as I got complaints regarding noise, especially under load, from customers using the SWX01 and the new one is certainly better. It also has a better gearing for hills in my opinion. I'm sure that there are those in the forums who will disagree with what I'm doing but the vast majority of customers simply want a nice quiet motor that will help up hills! And I'm afraid that in a democracy....

It might explain why one owner of the Alien Men's Special who posted on here was finding more rolling resistance than others who bought earlier in the year. I believe brushed motors have significantly worse freewheel performance in general (possibly always).

 

Freewheeled motors generally have the freewheel between the motor and the hub drive gears, so the motor type cannot influence the rolling resistance, whether brushed or not. The Powabyke brush motor goes one better and has the freewheel between hub and drive gear, so it has effectively no rolling resistance other then the wheel bearings, despite being a brushed type.

 

There's a lot of misunderstanding about the common brushless hub motors like those from Suzhou Bafang. In these the freewheel is between the motor and the orbital gears, and those gears run all the time the wheel is turning whether driven or not and create very real drag, despite the many claims they don't.

 

At the foot of the hill I live on there is a half mile stretch that looks flat but is in fact around about 1% downhill, and standard bikes accelerated to about 15 mph in still air will roll the entire length losing hardly any speed without pedalling. By contrast the various orbital geared hub motor bikes I've tried including my present two have all ground to a halt usually before the half way mark.

 

I finally proved this point about the roll resistance back in June 2007 when I started the conversion of my front motor Torq 1 into the rear motor T bike. Having taken the front motor wheel out ready to convert it to rear drive, I put the derailleur rear wheel into the forks and added a spare hub gear wheel I had into the rear to do that roll test with it as an ordinary bike.

 

It easily rolled to the end of that half mile losing virtually no speed at all, showing just how much the orbital gears in these hub motors do drag.

 

As the Torq 1, despite the Suzhou Bafang hub motor being well run in and perfectly set up, I always found it unpleasant to pedal without power on the flat at over 13 mph, with the extra effort required to pedal it over that for a normal bike rising as the speed increased, being very marked at 20 mph, that due to the orbital gear drag.

.

Edited April 30, 200916 yr by flecc

Sprint motor

 

Flecc,

For interest, when I stripped down the "Sprint" motor on my Chopper I noticed that the freewheel was between the gears and the wheel. I must try to do some freewheel comparisons between the Chopper and the Bafang-motored

Quando.

Peter

Here's the Sprint motor Peter:

 

[ATTACH]693.vB[/ATTACH]

 

and as you see, the orbital gears engage straight onto the hub rack gear so are engaged all the time and have to turn as the wheel turns. The freewheel to the centre cog from the motor only allows the motor to be stationary against the orbital gears. If it allowed the centre gear set to spin with the hub without the gears rotating, the motor would not be able to drive the wheel.

 

So it's the same as the SB type, and it's this understanding of the rotation where the misunderstanding always arises.

.

Edited April 30, 200916 yr by flecc

Sprint motor

 

Flecc,

No, have a look at the picture below.

[ATTACH]694.vB[/ATTACH]

The orbital gears engage in the black coloured ring gear. What isn't obvious from photos is that the ring gear is not fixed inside the hub. It can rotate relative to the wheel (in one direction at least).

 

The black coloured ring gear forms the side of a shallow steel cup. You are looking into the cup in the photo. All of the black colour is this heavy steel item. The bottom of the cup is pierced at the centre and the outside race of the sprag clutch is interference fitted into this bore. There is a peg between the bore of the cup and the outside race to transfer the torque.

 

The inside race of the sprag clutch is interference fitted onto a thin-walled steel sleeve, visible in the photo. The sleeve extends out of the far side of the sprag clutch and is rigidly attached to the wheel.

 

There is another bearing inside the steel sleeve. The stationary axle passes through the bore of this bearing so the wheel and sleeve and inner race of the sprag clutch can turn freely on the axle.

 

So, in the particular motor I've taken apart, the sprag clutch is between the orbital gears and the wheel.

 

I've just checked and I believe it is possible to feel more drag on the Quando than the Chopper just by turning the wheels by hand.

 

I've tried spinning the wheels by hand and recording the time to stop. Not a very exact measure of drag I suppose, but the best I could get from the Quando with a firm push on the spokes was 19 seconds, whereas the Chopper's Sprint motor manged 59 seconds.

 

Peter

Edited April 30, 200916 yr by Sector

Thanks Peter, I stand corrected. I'd never handled a Sprint motor but had glanced at an open one in passing and didn't realise the orbital ring was free, a better arrangement and having the same advantage as the Powabyke motor. That photo I showed wasn't mine.

 

Unfortunately the SB and most of the smaller diameter hub motors have orbital rings fixed into the hub shell, and drag in consequence as your Quando motor clearly shows.

.

Sprint motor

 

Flecc,

Yes that big heavy steel item would be relatively expensive. It seems to have no other support apart from the sprag clutch/bearing unit, which also has to be big, heavy and expensive. The SB arrangment probably saves weight and has cost benefits at the expense of a little more drag.

I think space is as much as anything the problem in the small diameter hubs. The motors are wider and the overall hub is so wide it can't really afford to be any wider to accommodate a free running ring gear, and that would also enlarge the diameter a little too.

.