Advice required on a brompton conversion

[daniel.weck]

That's quite a spoke bend at the nipple level, does the tension hold uniformly with this lacing pattern? Regards, Daniel

If anyone wonders what a 36h hub in a 32h Brompton size rim looks like, it looks like this - not much different from a normal wheel

View attachment 3718

Alan

 

[daniel.weck]

I concur with NRG's remarks.

Also, the Cycle Analyst "standalone" model works with a shunt that doesn't require wiring into the controller. Works perfectly fine on my side. EDIT: ah okay, I just saw your posts about limiting the output current. In which case the shunt setup isn't helpful indeed.

Cheers, Daniel

Dont bother faffing about with ttl adapters, get the cable of e-crazyman which has the ttl and switch to program inbuilt, you may have to contact him if its not listed on ebay:

I also recommend his controllers, essentially the non modified versions of Lyens...you need to add the programming port header yourself but its no big deal..

 

[slippa]

Does anyone have a link to the Ed Lyen's modified programming software for one of his controllers?

 

[benjy_a]

Does anyone have a link to the Ed Lyen's modified programming software for one of his controllers?

Do you have one of his controllers? He will of course send it to you if you have one....he's very specific about asking for it to not be shared if you have not bought one of his products. Sorry if this sounds unhelpful.
Ben

 

[slippa]

Yes I have one. He forgot the programming cable/adapter initially and I've now just received it but he didn't include a link to the software. I've sent him an email asking for a link but I just thought someone might have the link so I don't have to wait. I didn't realise it wasn't publicly available.

Matt

 

[benjy_a]

Yes I have one. He forgot the programming cable/adapter initially and I've now just received it but he didn't include a link to the software. I've sent him an email asking for a link but I just thought someone might have the link so I don't have to wait. I didn't realise it wasn't publicly available.

Matt

PM sent.

 

[slippa]

A quick update

My motor is with Alan (catsnapper) being re-laced into a 36h 349mm CR18 and I hope to receive it within the next couple of days.

In the meantime, I've received lots of packages in the mail:

Lyen controller + USB-TTL programming adapter
Cycle Analyst
Thumb throttle (didn't like the bms battery kit supplied throttle)
Tioga R60 Riser Bar to replace my M handlebars
Gub Stem to raise the bars an additional 55mm
Asaklitt Handlebar Grips (really comfortable and inexpensive)

I've fitted the handlebars, Gub Stem, kit's brake leavers (cables removed) and the grips and I really like the riding position and feel of the new grips. Using the new handlebars without the stem was a little harsh on my back so feel the extra height the stem has given me is just right.

I'll try to take and post some pictures soon.

Cheers
Matt

 

[jerrysimon]

SJS have the Sun CR18 36h 16" rims back in stock. Grab them whilst you can.

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/sun-cr18-16-x-1-3-8-(349)-abt-alloy-rim-silver-36-hole-prod8542/

I still hate them for fitting tyres to, thouhg maybe I should try again as I think my technique has improved.

Regards

Jerry

 

[slippa]

Hello All

Sorry for lack of an update but I've been super busy work with work recently and very little time to concentrate on my bike.

I've received my wheel back from Alan - great job Alan - thanks again!

I've wired everything up and am finding that when I have my cycle analyst connected, I seem to be getting some stuttering in the power to the motor and a maximum of about 9mph. With it disconnected, it seems to run a lot faster and smoother but the controller and motor get very hot pretty quickly (and that's with the bike upside-down and therefore freewheeling under no resistance).
The Lyen controller is set up with a maximum of 10amps and the cycle analyst is set the same. I suppose 48v x 10amp is 480W being pushed through the 250W motor but it shouldn't be pulling that many amps when under no resistance so I don't understand why it's getting so hot.
Can anyone advise me what I might be doing wrong here.
<matt waits to get shouted at for attempting to get more speed without understanding the consequences>

Many thanks
Matt

 

[benjy_a]

Matt, the motor should not be running hot with no load, I think something is wrong. Unloaded I would expect it to draw less than 1A. Does the motor run freely when disconnected or could something be physically restricting it? Somebody else may be able to advise more but perhaps that tiny little motor really does not like 48v!

I think you have a problem with your CA setup as well. The CA will give wildly incorrect current readings unless you have the value of the shunt resistor (rshunt) in advanced settings pretty accurately set. Ed Lyen just supplies his controllers with a vague rshunt value.

What I would do is take off the current limit setting on the cycle analyst. You will have to trust the Lyen controller setting that it is supplying a max of 10A. Then have a look at the CA and see what current it is displaying. I'm guessing that it is reading incorrectly high and then modulating the power to the controller too early and unnecessarily, creating the fluctuations that you are getting.

You will not be able to calibrate the CA until you are in a position to load the motor so that it draws max current (in your case 10A as it's currently set). You will then be able to tweek the rshunt value until the CA is displaying 10A when going uphill, full throttle at about half of max top speed. This will create a situation where the motor is drawing as much current as the controller will give it. To calibrate I would do this with the controller set to 5A max...that way you won't have to stress the system so much. You can afterwards re-program the controller for more current and the cycle analyst should still be displaying the correct current.

Having the cycle analyst with the Lyen controller is really a belt and braces situation...I have the same setup and I just trust the programmed levels of the controller rather than using the limiting function of the CA. You can also program top speed on the controller and I use a three way speed switch also.

Hope that makes some sense...I'm still half asleep on the train!

Ben

 

[slippa]

Thanks Ben, that makes alot of sense.

When you say 'take off the current limit on the cycle analyst', is that just setting it to a high value such as 99A?

I'll try to have a play with it next week (I'm away this weekend).

thanks
Matt

 

[benjy_a]

Thanks Ben, that makes alot of sense.

When you say 'take off the current limit on the cycle analyst', is that just setting it to a high value such as 99A?

I'll try to have a play with it next week (I'm away this weekend).

thanks
Matt

Yes exactly....set it really high so it doesn't falsely reduce the power when it (presumably) reads incorrectly high.

When I first plugged my CA into my Lyen controller with the rshunt value supplied it was reading 70-80A under load with the controller set to 10A! Quite scary to see on the screen but completely wrong. My power was also being cut by the CA creating a strange power oscillation.


After multiple uphill runs and tweaking the rshunt setting I have got it just about right (15A under max load).

I will have a look at my settings tomorrow and let you know what value I arrived at (although I believe they are all different), it may give you a ballpark at which to start.

Ben

 

[slippa]

Well folks, I've tried all sorts of Shunt settings with the CA and controller configurations and this motor just doesn't like 48v. I can get about 10mph out of it freewheeling if I allow the controller to pull about 25A but then the controller gets super hot and the wires begin to melt. It's either woefully underpowered, faulty or just doesn't like the high voltage.

I wish I'd just gone with my original idea of the Bafang 36V350W. I've read of various folks having success with it at 48V as long as you have good torque arms which I think I have.

Disappointing.

Cheers
Matt

 

[benjy_a]

V sorry you're having all these difficulties, it really sounds like something is faulty to be honest. Do you have any other bits of kit with which to test? i.e. a different motor to test the controller, or different controller to test the motor?

The motor should run properly and fast when unloaded and even at 48v use hardly any current whatever the peak setting you have programmed. Things should not be getting hot or melting!

What happens when you don't use the C.A? Have you contacted Ed Lyen to ask his opinion?

You could always consider the Crystalyte G209 that I have, its awesome at 48v and can be bought laced into a Brompton rim. You have all the other bits that you need.

Ben

 

[slippa]

Hi Ben

I've tried emailing Ed 3 times now to ask about the software and Shunt settings and he just doesn't respond. I won't be recommending him if that's his after sales approach. He was certainly prompt in replying when I expressed an interest in buying the controller.

I've also tried disconnecting the CA but it's still woefully slow.

I do have another controller that came with my kit (a KT63 or KU65 I think) but I'll have to change the connectors etc.. 48V may be too much for it though.

Cheers
Matt

 

[alfazzr]

OK, bear in mind I know nothing about this set up but the story here sound a lot like one I read earlier on this forum where the hall sensors were wired up incorrectly (I expect this is where you all shout at me that this motor does not have hall sensors - hence my health warning at the start). They went through a process of changing the sensors round until it ran correctly. Just a thought...........

 

[slippa]

Hey alfazzr - I'm willing to try anything at this stage so I appreciate the suggestion. I've decided to give it a rest for tonight but I'll certainly check my wiring again tomorrow.
I suppose the other possibility is that even if I have the colours matched up correctly, there is a chance the motor's hall wires are wired incorrectly.

thanks
Matt

 

[slippa]

Hey alfazzr - the more I read about this, the more your suggestion makes sense.

Here's an excerpt from a thread on Endless-sphere:

A correct Hall/Phase wire combination will run very smooth and draw very little current (1 or 2 amps) under no-load testing. A wrong Hall/Phase wire combination will generally run very rough and draw much higher current under no-load testing. Using the wrong wiring combo under a full load (on the road) can and will damage the controller and/or your motor.

Not sure if this is allowed but its a good, useful post.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3484

 

[benjy_a]

I think alfazzr is right here....I had assumed that you knew what you were doing with the hall/phase wires (sorry NO insult meant by this) but I therefore ignored the completely obvious possibility that you have these wrong.

The thing that makes me even more sure about this is that you state that you have matched the colours up correctly; but the colours are highly unlikely to correlate exactly between your Lyen contoller and motor combination. You will have to play around with them until you have it running smoothly. I recommend something like screw connector strip (standard electricians stuff) to make it easy to swap the wires around to get it up and running.

As an example, here is the colour combination on my setup (Lyen controller/Crystalyte motor) the red and black hall wires are likely to be the same (red is power, black is earth).

Controller: Motor:

HALL:
Yellow Yellow
Green Blue
Blue Green

PHASE:
Yellow Blue
Green Green
Blue Yellow

Have a look at this thread on Endless Sphere:

Endless-sphere.com &bull; View topic - How to Determine the Wiring for a Brushless Motor

Here is one more thing that you could buy to help you get this all set up correctly; it will tell you the correct wiring sequence:

24V/36V/48V/60V E-bike Brushless Motor Controler Tester | eBay

Fingers crossed that you haven't damaged anything so far...

Ben

 

[slippa]

Thanks so much alfazzr - that was indeed the problem.

It should have been:

Controller > Motor
Yellow > Green
Blue > Yellow
Green > Blue

And my CA says its running at 30mph under no load!

Ben - no offense taken. I'm not a stupid man but I do sometimes cut corners in terms of reading up on the detail. I've learned a lesson today. Thanks.

Off for a test run - I'll report back.