Advice re new bike with hub gears.

[flecc]

Well it's a worry that I have explain this one flecc, but here goes.

To my mind the idea of an Ebike or Pedelec Is to have a bicycle that is as close to riding a regular bike, but with some assistance but still have the feel of using gears but via a CVT or IGH,

But you haven't explained anything, the feel of an ordinary bike can still there with a hub motor. How the assist feels is a matter of how the motor is controlled, and that can be same for either hub or crank motors. The gears are there for riders, since they intrinsically have a very limited range of cadence commensurate with joint health and output. If an IGH is wanted, and I'm a hub gear fan, the hub motor can be front wheel, I've owned both.

The assist motor doesn't need any gears to cover the very limited assist speed range of a pedelec, and putting the motor power though the gears just greatly increases the stress and wear on the gear system for no useful reason.

Just witness the number who post on changing chains and sprockets after only a few hundred miles and the number of hub gear failures when they are used with crank motors. Shimano even had to scrap their 4 speed IGH for this reason.
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[anotherkiwi]

Hub motors work best within a limited speed range, once you get out of their comfort zone they are a bit of a pain, you can't ride everywhere all the time at 25 km/h... Crank dive motors work best at a certain cadence but you can maintain that cadence at very different speeds depending on the gearing - between 9 and 45 km/h with the GSM.

I spend way to much time thinking about gears... Probably because I live in the foothills of a major European mountain range. My chain and sprockets are about 2200 km old, I lubed the chain a couple of weeks ago (for the first time) so I got a close look at it and it should do a few hundred more km. A member of the forum told me this is because I have good gear changing skills...

The Rohloff is the only IGH suited for use on a powerful crank drive pedelec because it is rated for 110 nm of torque. It also has a decent range of useful gears for someone who lives in conditions like mine. The Nuvinci has a much more limited range of gears and is very inefficient which boils down to -15% range from your battery.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Well it's a worry that I have explain this one flecc, but here goes.

To my mind the idea of an Ebike or Pedelec Is to have a bicycle that is as close to riding a regular bike, but with some assistance but still have the feel of using gears but via a CVT or IGH, and I just think that the derrailure system is not ideal when using a crank drive, as the range of a 9 speed cassette does not cut the mustard.

As for rear Hub electric motors, I think that they are best suited to mopeds or motor bikes were no additional gearing is required as in EV's thus no chain or drive shaft to give a sleek design.

Even Bosch themselves state that the latest line of Ebike mid drive motors, have been designed to give a more bicycle like experience, and I can see exactly were they are comming from.

Don't get me wrong, Bosch also produce some decent electric Hub drive motors, it's all horses for courses at the end of the day.

Thanks. That gave me a right belly laugh. I've never heard such a load of ball-cox. if you had a go on my hub-motored bike, you'd completely change your opinion on most, if not all, of those points. you really ought to get out and try a few modern ebikes.

 

[Denis99]

The Rohloff is the only IGH suited for use on a powerful crank drive pedelec because it is rated for 110 nm of torque. It also has a decent range of useful gears for someone who lives in conditions like mine. The Nuvinci has a much more limited range of gears and is very inefficient which boils down to -15% range from your battery.

Can't comment on the technical info regarding the Rohloff being the only IGH suitable due to the torque, but I am sure Trek would not have spec'd an unsuitable IGH for the Super Commuter bike.

The gear range is a bit misleading.
I live in South Wales which is quite hilly. The range of gears is fine for the hilly Welsh terrain, and the lower gears are fine for any climbing that I do. The taller gears are a bit of a misnomer really, the weight of the bike prevents any realistic speed of about 20mph on the flat, regardless of whether the gearing can match that speed ( which it can).
It just becomes too much hard work to pedal beyond 20 ish mph ( without pedal assist).

I am getting about 55 miles from a full battery charge, but I ride mainly in Eco.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Can't comment on the technical info regarding the Rohloff being the only IGH suitable due to the torque, but I am sure Trek would not have spec'd an unsuitable IGH for the Super Commuter bike.

The gear range is a bit misleading.
I live in South Wales which is quite hilly. The range of gears is fine for the hilly Welsh terrain, and the lower gears are fine for any climbing that I do. The taller gears are a bit of a misnomer really, the weight of the bike prevents any realistic speed of about 20mph on the flat, regardless of whether the gearing can match that speed ( which it can).
It just becomes too much hard work to pedal beyond 20 ish mph ( without pedal assist).

I am getting about 55 miles from a full battery charge, but I ride mainly in Eco.

It is a thing of beauty! But the Nuvinci is only really suited to powered riding because it eats up about 15% of the Watts you are feeding it. That is why it gets so hard over 20 mph. Trek in their wisdom also have the +8 derailleur bike...

I can pedal my very heavy bike to over 20 mph (about 22 mph before I really have to work hard). But I really hate spinning out downhill so I prefer a wider range.

Here are the numbers:

Singlespeed: 97% efficient (Drivetrain loss of 6w @ 200w).
Rohloff : 94.5% efficient on average across 14 gears (Drivetrain loss of 11w @ 200w)
Pinion: 90.5% efficient on average across 18 gears (Drivetrain loss of 19w @ 200w).
Shimano Alfine 11: 90.5% efficient on average across 11 gears (Drivetrain loss of 19w @ 200w).
Shimano Nexus 8: 90% efficient on average across 8 gears (Drivetrain loss of 20w @ 200w).
Nuvinci 360: 83.5% efficient on average across the gear range (Drivetrain loss of 33w @ 200w).

Source: https://fahrradzukunft.de/

 

[D C]

A member of the forum told me this is because I have good gear changing skills...

I think you are absolutely right, I see so many folk cycling with big cog to big or small cog to small, makes me cringe along with folk who lay their bikes on the ground on the right hand side with the rear mech taking some of the bikes weight.
I guess it keeps the bike shops in work
Dave.

 

[Danidl]

I have been riding igh Bikes since the 1970's and I really don't get why in this modern age that ebikes come with derailleur gears, they are just so last century.

My current none ebike sports a Roholff SpeedHub fitted back in 2004, it's 14 evenly spaced gears give the same gear range as a 27 gear derailleur set up with it's 3 chainring and 9 cog cassette.

All igh models can be retrofitted to a crank drive ebike, all though there are a good number of ebikes that are comming through with igh's such as the Shimano Alfine, Rohloff and let's not forget the Nuvinci CVT unit.

If my first ebike comes with a derailleur, that will be the first thing that comes of, to be replaced with an igh.

Could it also be that the derrailler is a later invention than the hub gear..? Is lighter more efficient and costs less.. na that would be to simple a reason

 

[Trevormonty]

For FS MTB lighter unsprung weight of derailleur is only way to go. You can use IGH but it reduces responsive of suspension.

 

[Denis99]

I agree with Trevor.

I had the rohloff originally on a mountain bike hardtail and thought it was great. Made the mistake of ordering an expensive Nicolai Helius FS bike , with dropouts for the rohloff.

In reality, I found the extra weight in the centre of the rear wheel did hinder the performance / enjoyment of the bike.

I say that as someone who is a fan of the IGH, but derailleurs do have advantages and disadvantages.

Like most things, there is no definitive answer.

 

[SHAN]

I had a loan of home build with front hub drive and a SRAM 2 speed auto hub and I found it very good. I've got a Koga world traveler with derailleur which was my choice after trying the Rohloff equipped version. The derailleur is quicker shifting, smoother running and suffers less drag, plus, unless things have changed, the Rohloff is not an owner repair job, factory only. I've also got a chain oiler / cleaner fitted (obsolete Scottoiler) which has worked extremely well. The oiler is going onto my Giant soon, so "we'll" see how it goes.

 

[Rohloffboy]

Well, I got my Rohloff SpeedHub back in 2004, cost £500 back then, done a few tours from Manchester to Scotland since then and it has never skipped a beat.

I wonder how many derrailure cassettes, mech's and chainring's I would have gone through in 13 years!

And even today my Rohloff SpeedHub is running as sweet as a pea, it just seems to get better as each year passes.

 

[Danidl]

I have been riding igh Bikes since the 1970's and I really don't get why in this modern age that ebikes come with derailleur gears, they are just so last century.

My current none ebike sports a Roholff SpeedHub fitted back in 2004, it's 14 evenly spaced gears give the same gear range as a 27 gear derailleur set up with it's 3 chainring and 9 cog cassette.

All igh models can be retrofitted to a crank drive ebike, all though there are a good number of ebikes that are comming through with igh's such as the Shimano Alfine, Rohloff and let's not forget the Nuvinci CVT unit.

If my first ebike comes with a derailleur, that will be the first thing that comes of, to be replaced with an igh.

Which part of hub gears were there first and then replaced by the lighter , more efficient , wider range derrailler did you fail to understand first time around?. Modern indexed derrailliers are trouble free, and unless you displace them by crashing etc don't need adjusting, i have done 1000 miles over the last year without any adjustment. . I have derrailliers on a 40 year old bike which only needed serious maintaince when the chain got stuck between the large gear an the boss of the wheel and wrenched the wheel off its lugs. Mind you I have also SA hubs of similar age, still working away... Including a 1966 Mouton hub.

 

[Danidl]

Well, I got my Rohloff SpeedHub back in 2004, cost £500 back then, done a few tours from Manchester to Scotland since then and it has never skipped a beat.

I wonder how many derrailure cassettes, mech's and chainring's I would have gone through in 13 years!

And even today my Rohloff SpeedHub is running as sweet as a pea, it just seems to get better as each year passes.

Let me see, i was doing a commute on an raliegh Carlton 12 mile round trip, cross city, six years ,or so , many decades ago. no derrailliers repairs. I was doing a 6 mile round trip commute on ebike for 5 years ,starting in 2007 replaced the chain, the chainring and the changer( my bad I had been trying to stop the chain falling off when it was a new chain I needed ) at the end cost some 40 quid in Halfords
I m happy that your hubgear is reliable and troublefree , but so are other gears.

 

[Gringo]

For my 10 pence worth
I had both options on my Bosch powered Cube and late last year I built an analog (un-assited) bike from eBay & spare parts. Initialy fitted with a 9 derailleur (because that's what I had) untill a few weeks ago when I fitted a alfine 8 spd hub.

The difference between the two gear types on the same bike.

Both shift smoothly but I don't need to plan ahead when shifting with IHG's as it shifts whilst stationary

There's negligible difference in ratios but on the analog bike I did notice the additional weight/drag of the IHG at first
by the second / third ride I'd forgotten all about it

Riding the same mixed terrain my derailleurs were getting grass stuck in the mechanism but I'm seeing almost nothing on the IHG

With IHG's its not as convenient to drop out the wheel as it is with derailleurs and a QR axle

Initialy IHG's are a more expensive but chains & chainwheels last longer / cost less than cassettes and chains

These are only my personal findings, other opinions are available

 

[anotherkiwi]

If I was wealthy enough my dream trike would be an AZUB Ti-FLY 26 with the pinion 18 speed and a Q100H in the back wheel. Great gear range, full suspension and 250 W help on the hills. Only about 7900€ with the options...