Advice re new bike with hub gears.

My wife and I have respectively a Woosh Santana DL and a Woosh Big Bear. We've had them for three years and are very happy with them. We only use them over three trips of six weeks each in our motorhome. The batteries are topped up regularly, even when not being used and seem to be almost as new.

However, I wouldn't mind something a bit lighter and with say, a seven speed hub gear. In my view derailleurs are the spawn of Satan and need constant adjustment!

What do you experts think? Price isn't too important but, as we only use them three times a year (albeit for a six week holiday), I don't think it's sensible to spend say £2.5 to £3K each.

Is a hub gear feasible? Are they as effective as a derailleur and are they more maintenance free?

Finally, what's the best way to sell the two Woosh bikes and what sort of value do you think they'll have?

Thanks.

Finally, what's the best way to sell the two Woosh bikes and what sort of value do you think they'll have?

we can help you sell them on our second hand web page.

They should get around £450 each.

Take some pictures and email them to support@wooshbikes.co.uk

There is no charge for this service.

Probably a bit out of your budget, but I recently bought a Trek Super Commuter ebike.

I bought the versions n that has the Nuvinci hub.

Have mainly had conventional gear systems in the past, not had that much trouble to be honest, but prefer the hub system as it is quiet, cleaner with less maintenance all round.

I have ridden the new bike about 200 miles now. Nuvinci hub has been exactly what I wanted. Clean, quiet and absolutely no maintenance at all.

Rear wheel does weigh quite a bit more though, and you can feel the weight of the hub when the motor assist cuts out.

For the type of bike the Trek is, then it suits it fine.

I have been riding igh Bikes since the 1970's and I really don't get why in this modern age that ebikes come with derailleur gears, they are just so last century.

My current none ebike sports a Roholff SpeedHub fitted back in 2004, it's 14 evenly spaced gears give the same gear range as a 27 gear derailleur set up with it's 3 chainring and 9 cog cassette.

All igh models can be retrofitted to a crank drive ebike, all though there are a good number of ebikes that are comming through with igh's such as the Shimano Alfine, Rohloff and let's not forget the Nuvinci CVT unit.

If my first ebike comes with a derailleur, that will be the first thing that comes of, to be replaced with an igh.

I have been riding igh Bikes since the 1970's and I really don't get why in this modern age that ebikes come with derailleur gears, they are just so last century.

could it be because nobody has come up with a hubgear as light and as energy efficient as a derailleur?

My wife and I have respectively a Woosh Santana DL and a Woosh Big Bear. We've had them for three years and are very happy with them. We only use them over three trips of six weeks each in our motorhome. The batteries are topped up regularly, even when not being used and seem to be almost as new.

 

However, I wouldn't mind something a bit lighter and with say, a seven speed hub gear. In my view derailleurs are the spawn of Satan and need constant adjustment!

 

What do you experts think? Price isn't too important but, as we only use them three times a year (albeit for a six week holiday), I don't think it's sensible to spend say £2.5 to £3K each.

 

Is a hub gear feasible? Are they as effective as a derailleur and are they more maintenance free?

 

Finally, what's the best way to sell the two Woosh bikes and what sort of value do you think they'll have?

 

Thanks.

Most of ebikes with factory middrives ie bosch shimano that have igh are >£2k. Modern derailleurs shouldn't need adjusting on regular basis, especially mid-high end ones eg shimano deore, SLX, XT. For cost of upgrading perfectly good bikes you could fit high quality derailleurs, Di2 even, over kill but once set that is about it for life.

Edited November 19, 20178 yr by Trevormonty

Modern derailleurs should need adjusting on regular basis, especially mid-high end ones eg shimano deore, SLX, XT. For cost of upgrading perfectly good bikes you could fit high quality derailleurs, Di2 even, over kill but once set that is about it for life.

That's not true at all. In seven years of e-biking, and about 15,000 miles, I've never yet needed to adjust a derailleur in service - i.e. only adjusted one when I've installed the drerailleur/motor. I've also done about 200 miles in the last three years on road bikes and never needed to adjust one of those either at any time.

OP asked whether hub gears need less maintenance than derailleurs. I would ask him how much maintenance has he done to the gears on his present bikes?

That's not true at all. In seven years of e-biking, and about 15,000 miles, I've never yet needed to adjust a derailleur in service - i.e. only adjusted one when I've installed the drerailleur/motor. I've also done about 200 miles in the last three years on road bikes and never needed to adjust one of those either at any time.

 

OP asked whether hub gears need less maintenance than derailleurs. I would ask him how much maintenance has he done to the gears on his present bikes?

we can help you sell them on our second hand web page.

They should get around £450 each.

Take some pictures and email them to support@wooshbikes.co.uk

There is no charge for this service.

Thanks Hattie (if it's you!)

You may remember me rolling up with my motorhome when I needed a problem sorting on one of our bikes. If I do sell them I'll consider using your service.

Maybe I've been unlucky but I've had occasions where the gears don't change properly and if I try to adjust them I just end up making it worse and have to take it to a dealer to get it done properly.

We like our bikes, they're comfortable and for the price have been great value for us occasional users but I may just consider keeping them and accepting that I need to get them properly serviced and checked once a year.

Do you have any plans for a hub-gear model in the future?

Edited November 20, 20178 yr by CameraDealer

It's a known fact that derrailure, gears wear out in no time on ebikes, in fact I even spoke to a chap who owns an ebike with the Brose mid drive motor, and he said he was going through cassettes at an alarming rate.

No doubt the 90nm of the Brose was not helping matters.

Let's face it, the derrailure system was never designed to be run on a bicycle with motor, and to be fair most IGH's weren't either.

In fact the only two IGH's that I would argue are ideally suited to the ebike are the Rohloff and Nuvinci.

And is probably the reason why other IGH's seem to only be found on Ebikes with the lower torque motors.

Do you have any plans for a hub-gear model in the future?

we tend to put integrated hubgear on folding bikes because the derailleurs on the folding bikes tend to get a knock now and then.

On full sized bikes, we have the Sundowner for about 4 years (http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?sundowner) but sales were not sufficient to justify warehousing space, so we did not reorder it in the last 2 years.

We may bring it up to date soon but it's not certain.

It's a known fact that derrailure, gears wear out in no time on ebikes, in fact I even spoke to a chap who owns an ebike with the Brose mid drive motor, and he said he was going through cassettes at an alarming rate.

 

No doubt the 90nm of the Brose was not helping matters.

 

Let's face it, the derrailure system was never designed to be run on a bicycle with motor, and to be fair most IGH's weren't either.

 

In fact the only two IGH's that I would argue are ideally suited to the ebike are the Rohloff and Nuvinci.

 

And is probably the reason why other IGH's seem to only be found on Ebikes with the lower torque motors.

The 7 spd derailleurs on these bikes, while reliable are definitely at bargain end of range. When it comes to quality shifting you get what you pay for.

Yep Trevormonty, I guess with a rear electric Hub drive, then it's either derrailure or nothing.

It's just my personal opinion, that I would never even consider a electric hub drive motor, front or rear, I just think that they are naff.

Although who am I to comment, having never owned an ebike.

To my mind the way forward, pun intended is a crank drive motor, anything else is a compromise IMHO.

Although who am I to comment, having never owned an ebike.

 

To my mind the way forward, pun intended is a crank drive motor, anything else is a compromise IMHO.

Looks like the blind leading the blind then.

I would never even consider a electric hub drive motor, front or rear,

 

To my mind the way forward, pun intended is a crank drive motor, anything else is a compromise IMHO.

Consider this:

Electric cars like the Nissan Leaf use electric motors directly driving the wheels for their entire 80+ mph speed range, with no gearbox. They are the car world's equivalent of e-bike hub motors.

Why on earth would one need an e-bike motor to drive through lots of gears to cover a 11 to 15 mph speed range (4mph to 15 or 20 mph)?

.

Well it's a worry that I have explain this one flecc, but here goes.

To my mind the idea of an Ebike or Pedelec Is to have a bicycle that is as close to riding a regular bike, but with some assistance but still have the feel of using gears but via a CVT or IGH, and I just think that the derrailure system is not ideal when using a crank drive, as the range of a 9 speed cassette does not cut the mustard.

As for rear Hub electric motors, I think that they are best suited to mopeds or motor bikes were no additional gearing is required as in EV's thus no chain or drive shaft to give a sleek design.

Even Bosch themselves state that the latest line of Ebike mid drive motors, have been designed to give a more bicycle like experience, and I can see exactly were they are comming from.

Don't get me wrong, Bosch also produce some decent electric Hub drive motors, it's all horses for courses at the end of the day.

Ref the comment regarding the Nissan Leaf.

We have a Nissan Leaf, and apart from it being an EV car, the electric motor drive is just great. Completely smooth and relaxing to drive.

Well it's a worry that I have explain this one flecc, but here goes.

 

To my mind the idea of an Ebike or Pedelec Is to have a bicycle that is as close to riding a regular bike, but with some assistance but still have the feel of using gears but via a CVT or IGH, and I just think that the derrailure system is not ideal when using a crank drive, as the range of a 9 speed cassette does not cut the mustard.

 

As for rear Hub electric motors, I think that they are best suited to mopeds or motor bikes were no additional gearing is required as in EV's thus no chain or drive shaft to give a sleek design.

 

Even Bosch themselves state that the latest line of Ebike mid drive motors, have been designed to give a more bicycle like experience, and I can see exactly were they are comming from.

 

Don't get me wrong, Bosch also produce some decent electric Hub drive motors, it's all horses for courses at the end of the day.

Your mind is yours & yours alone.

To my mind an ebike is to go from A to B using as many gears and as much of the available power as I feel like using. I couldn't care less if it's like riding a regular bike. It just has to be reliable. Thankfully mine is. I shouldn't have typed that. The gremlins are no doubt waiting to pounce.

Well it's a worry that I have explain this one flecc, but here goes.

 

To my mind the idea of an Ebike or Pedelec Is to have a bicycle that is as close to riding a regular bike, but with some assistance but still have the feel of using gears but via a CVT or IGH,

But you haven't explained anything, the feel of an ordinary bike can still there with a hub motor. How the assist feels is a matter of how the motor is controlled, and that can be same for either hub or crank motors. The gears are there for riders, since they intrinsically have a very limited range of cadence commensurate with joint health and output. If an IGH is wanted, and I'm a hub gear fan, the hub motor can be front wheel, I've owned both.

The assist motor doesn't need any gears to cover the very limited assist speed range of a pedelec, and putting the motor power though the gears just greatly increases the stress and wear on the gear system for no useful reason.

Just witness the number who post on changing chains and sprockets after only a few hundred miles and the number of hub gear failures when they are used with crank motors. Shimano even had to scrap their 4 speed IGH for this reason.

.

Hub motors work best within a limited speed range, once you get out of their comfort zone they are a bit of a pain, you can't ride everywhere all the time at 25 km/h... Crank dive motors work best at a certain cadence but you can maintain that cadence at very different speeds depending on the gearing - between 9 and 45 km/h with the GSM.

I spend way to much time thinking about gears... Probably because I live in the foothills of a major European mountain range. My chain and sprockets are about 2200 km old, I lubed the chain a couple of weeks ago (for the first time) so I got a close look at it and it should do a few hundred more km. A member of the forum told me this is because I have good gear changing skills...

The Rohloff is the only IGH suited for use on a powerful crank drive pedelec because it is rated for 110 nm of torque. It also has a decent range of useful gears for someone who lives in conditions like mine. The Nuvinci has a much more limited range of gears and is very inefficient which boils down to -15% range from your battery.

Well it's a worry that I have explain this one flecc, but here goes.

 

To my mind the idea of an Ebike or Pedelec Is to have a bicycle that is as close to riding a regular bike, but with some assistance but still have the feel of using gears but via a CVT or IGH, and I just think that the derrailure system is not ideal when using a crank drive, as the range of a 9 speed cassette does not cut the mustard.

 

As for rear Hub electric motors, I think that they are best suited to mopeds or motor bikes were no additional gearing is required as in EV's thus no chain or drive shaft to give a sleek design.

 

Even Bosch themselves state that the latest line of Ebike mid drive motors, have been designed to give a more bicycle like experience, and I can see exactly were they are comming from.

 

Don't get me wrong, Bosch also produce some decent electric Hub drive motors, it's all horses for courses at the end of the day.

Thanks. That gave me a right belly laugh. I've never heard such a load of ball-cox. if you had a go on my hub-motored bike, you'd completely change your opinion on most, if not all, of those points. you really ought to get out and try a few modern ebikes.

The Rohloff is the only IGH suited for use on a powerful crank drive pedelec because it is rated for 110 nm of torque. It also has a decent range of useful gears for someone who lives in conditions like mine. The Nuvinci has a much more limited range of gears and is very inefficient which boils down to -15% range from your battery.

Can't comment on the technical info regarding the Rohloff being the only IGH suitable due to the torque, but I am sure Trek would not have spec'd an unsuitable IGH for the Super Commuter bike.

The gear range is a bit misleading.

I live in South Wales which is quite hilly. The range of gears is fine for the hilly Welsh terrain, and the lower gears are fine for any climbing that I do. The taller gears are a bit of a misnomer really, the weight of the bike prevents any realistic speed of about 20mph on the flat, regardless of whether the gearing can match that speed ( which it can).

It just becomes too much hard work to pedal beyond 20 ish mph ( without pedal assist).

I am getting about 55 miles from a full battery charge, but I ride mainly in Eco.

Can't comment on the technical info regarding the Rohloff being the only IGH suitable due to the torque, but I am sure Trek would not have spec'd an unsuitable IGH for the Super Commuter bike.

 

The gear range is a bit misleading.

I live in South Wales which is quite hilly. The range of gears is fine for the hilly Welsh terrain, and the lower gears are fine for any climbing that I do. The taller gears are a bit of a misnomer really, the weight of the bike prevents any realistic speed of about 20mph on the flat, regardless of whether the gearing can match that speed ( which it can).

It just becomes too much hard work to pedal beyond 20 ish mph ( without pedal assist).

 

I am getting about 55 miles from a full battery charge, but I ride mainly in Eco.

It is a thing of beauty! But the Nuvinci is only really suited to powered riding because it eats up about 15% of the Watts you are feeding it. That is why it gets so hard over 20 mph. Trek in their wisdom also have the +8 derailleur bike...

I can pedal my very heavy bike to over 20 mph (about 22 mph before I really have to work hard). But I really hate spinning out downhill so I prefer a wider range.

Here are the numbers:

Singlespeed: 97% efficient (Drivetrain loss of 6w @ 200w).

Rohloff : 94.5% efficient on average across 14 gears (Drivetrain loss of 11w @ 200w)

Pinion: 90.5% efficient on average across 18 gears (Drivetrain loss of 19w @ 200w).

Shimano Alfine 11: 90.5% efficient on average across 11 gears (Drivetrain loss of 19w @ 200w).

Shimano Nexus 8: 90% efficient on average across 8 gears (Drivetrain loss of 20w @ 200w).

Nuvinci 360: 83.5% efficient on average across the gear range (Drivetrain loss of 33w @ 200w).

Source: https://fahrradzukunft.de/