Advice re: 2 year-old agattu panasonic - Significant chain wear

[jackhandy]

Morning all,
A lady I met at the Eden eBike Show has asked me to "Have a look at" her ebike, as above, as it's making a grauching noise "Down near the motor".

Once I got 2 years' worth of WD40 & crud cleaned off, there is about 3/16" chain stretch (in 12") and the graunching, which is only audible when riding with power applied, would seem to be the chain misbehaving on the motor sprocket. No noise is evident with the chain bypassing the motor sprocket.

Apparently, the bike has been totally neglected, apart from a dose of WD40 to the chain, every time it's ridden; which it hasn't been for the past 2 months, as evidenced by the flat tyres & pretty well total absence of stoppers!

It has 8 Shimano hub gears:

Considering the amount of chain stretch, I'm assuming a full set of sprockets, including motor sprocket, is required, in addition to a chain?

If so, can anyone recommend a supplier?

Photos show wear, or lack of....

The bike was bought from 50 cycles at New Year 2011.

 

[oigoi]

You could try just fitting a new chain but I'm not sure it would work that well, depends how much they sprocket teeth have worn. Could be worth a try as a cheap fix and if it doesn't work then spend the extra and get sprockets and a chainwheel too

 

[flecc]

You can just turn the motor sprocket around to present the unworn tooth faces to the chain rollers, with either the old or a new chain. That often fixes the problem for quite a while.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I can't see any significant wear on the sprockets. Just get a new chain, and see how you get on. Flip the motor sprocket if it doesn't like the new chain.

 

[50 Hertz]

If you decide to renew anything to do with the drive, it's worth changing the whole lot, chain, chain wheel, motor sprocket and rear sprocket. My experience of changing just one item isn't satisfactory in that wear in the other existing components results in the new parts not meshing with them smoothly.

A good clean and lubrication can work wonders on these machines. Removing the chain and giving it a good soak in a cleaning agent followed by manually working some grease into it is a good start. Also have a clean around the various sprockets as well.

I don't know how many miles the bike has done, but I got 8000 miles out of a single chain and set of sprockets and then renewed the lot together. The drive occasionally became noisy, but following the above solved that.

50 cycles sell all the bits, but the 1/8 chain and rear sprocket can be obtained from most bike shops. You will need 2 chains though if you go down that route, 1 isn't log enough and you have to splice a bit if the second chain on to make the required length.

WD40 is not a lubricant, so if that is all that has been applied to the chain, it's effectively been running dry, so might have significant wear.

 

[jackhandy]

Thanks for the replies, chaps:

Can I just confirm the chain size with you, though.

The chain I've taken off measures 2.4mm across the roller & the sprockets are ~2.2mm thick:

Does that make for a 1/8" chain, or is it actually a 3/32?

 

[50 Hertz]

Thanks for the replies, chaps:

Can I just confirm the chain size with you, though.

The chain I've taken off measures 2.4mm across the roller & the sprockets are ~2.2mm thick:

Does that make for a 1/8" chain, or is it actually a 3/32?

If its a Nexus / Alfine hub gear unit, it's 1/8 chain x 2 lengths unless the bike shop has an off cut.

I use this chain. It's also available in a range of different colours to suit the more stylish cyclist.

 

[flecc]

Thanks for the replies, chaps:

Can I just confirm the chain size with you, though.

The chain I've taken off measures 2.4mm across the roller & the sprockets are ~2.2mm thick:

Does that make for a 1/8" chain, or is it actually a 3/32?

It's a 3/32", internal metric width 2.38 mm.

A 1/8" chain internal metric width is 3.18 mm.

If it hasn't got derailleur gears, it's an up to 8 speed derailleur sprocket set on a hub gear bike, not unknown, it simplifies parts stocks.
.

 

[BAH48]

"WD40 is not a lubricant, so if that is all that has been applied to the chain, it's effectively been running dry, so might have significant wear."

Not true!

WD40 contains around 15% light lubricating oil, so while it may not be the best chain lubricant, if applied regularly it's quite effective.

 

[Pro-connected]

Sorry BAH48, but I disagree fundamentally. WD40 is not a lubricant! As avid completist readers of this forum may know, I acquired a Kalkhoff Pro-Connect S from another member in December 2012. On the 9th of April the chain parted going up a slight incline. After the chain was replaced, the transmission started slipping under load regularly. At the Edinburgh Cycle Company this was instantly diagnosed as significant wear in the rear cassette.

On back-tracking through this forum, I learned that the previous owner's 'lubricant' of choice was WD40. I find that describing WD40 as a 'lubricant' to professional cycle mechanics generally prompts slapping of the forehead, fierce oaths, hilarity or any combination of the three.

This is not a complaint about the bike I bought. (Caveat emptor). I reckon that replacing the chain and the rear cassette has improved the mechanical efficiency of the transmission by about 10 to 15%. I can tell that from both a higher top speed, and an increase in cruising speed of 1 to 2 mph without putting more effort in. My PC-S has gone from being a very good bike to being a great bike in my view.

If you go to the WD40 website, you'll read that "WD-40 literally stands for Water Displacement, 40th formula". Under FAQs about bikes the makers claim that "you can use it on frames to prevent them from rusting, to lubricate pivot points, to prevent mud from sticking and to displace moisture from bike components". Nothing about chains, though, and here's a quote from a website called Gizmodo: "while WD-40 is useful for everything from unsticking gum to cleaning tile, you shouldn't spray it anywhere near your bike. It causes dirt and dust to stick to your chain, turning it into a grody mess". That's my philosophy.

Incidentally the replacement chain on my PC-S is an especially long version for electric bikes made by KMC. Electric Bike Chains

It works fine, and there's no need to buy 2 shorter chains and join them.

 

[Artstu]

I wonder which chain lubricant is best then?

 

[BAH48]

Once the solvent component of WD40 has gone the oil is left, so it is a lubricant, but at 15% light oil it's not going to be as effective as a specific lubricant. My point is that if you spray it on your chain every time you use the bike it's better than nothing. I use it quite a lot and have never found that it attracts dirt and dust, a quick spray and wipe with a cloth. I've never had any problems with chains or sprockets in 50 years of cycling.

 

[oigoi]

I just use car engine oil but have also found car gearbox oil good in the winter if I'm riding in a lot of wet weather

 

[50 Hertz]

If it hasn't got derailleur gears, it's an up to 8 speed derailleur sprocket set on a hub gear bike, not unknown, it simplifies parts stocks.

I thought jackhandy said the bike had 8 hub gears, which I took to mean either an Alfine or Nexus unit. Are you suggesting that there is a choice of rear sprocket width / thickness for theses hub gears? I know that you can buy them in varying sizes in terms of number of teeth, but I've just done a quick search on a few web-sites and there doesn't appear to be an option to select 3/32" or 1/8" alternatives, unless you know different. I've only looked at three suppliers, but all only offer one sprocket thickness.

What would be the likely consequences of running a 1/8" chain on a 3/32" sprocket? I ask because none of the websites that I have looked at tell you what thickness the sprocket is. I just thought that these Alfine rear sprockets were all intended for 1/8" chain.

I know people have run into trouble in the past using 3/32" chain with a Panasonic motor and Alfine / Nexus combination. The narrower chain has not run freely on the motor sprocket causing the chain to jump and slip.

"WD40 is not a lubricant, so if that is all that has been applied to the chain, it's effectively been running dry, so might have significant wear."

Not true!

WD40 contains around 15% light lubricating oil, so while it may not be the best chain lubricant, if applied regularly it's quite effective.

WD40 isn't really intended to be used as a lubricant and I would think it even more unsuitable where surface contact pressure is high and surface area is small, ie on a chain or where meshing gear teeth are concerned. What little lubricating properties WD40 does have are more than likely a by-product of the ingredients used in this water displacement product. With transmission systems such as chains and gears, a more sensible approach would be to use greases or transmission oils.

 

[BAH48]

WD40 contains 15% light machine oil - it's a fact!

It's a general purpose product that has its uses.

 

[50 Hertz]

WD40 contains 15% light machine oil - it's a fact!

It's a general purpose product that has its uses.

I saw that on Wikipedia too.

It's still not a good product to rely on for bike chain lubrucation. The forces per unit area are high and you need something which will maintain a film of lubricant between mating surfaces under these conditions. WD40 isn't suitable and an increased wear rate will be evident. For best protection from metal on metal wear in chains, use grease or transmission oil.

 

[flecc]

I thought jackhandy said the bike had 8 hub gears, which I took to mean either an Alfine or Nexus unit. Are you suggesting that there is a choice of rear sprocket width / thickness for theses hub gears? I know that you can buy them in varying sizes in terms of number of teeth, but I've just done a quick search on a few web-sites and there doesn't appear to be an option to select 3/32" or 1/8" alternatives, unless you know different. I've only looked at three suppliers, but all only offer one sprocket thickness.

What would be the likely consequences of running a 1/8" chain on a 3/32" sprocket? I ask because none of the websites that I have looked at tell you what thickness the sprocket is. I just thought that these Alfine rear sprockets were all intended for 1/8" chain.

I know people have run into trouble in the past using 3/32" chain with a Panasonic motor and Alfine / Nexus combination. The narrower chain has not run freely on the motor sprocket causing the chain to jump and slip.

Jackhandy's measurement of the roller width is specifically that for 8 speed derailleur chain, so that hub gear must have that width of sprocket if he's measured that sprocket at the bottom of a tooth recess and his measure is accurate. However, I've also quoted him the roller metric width for 1/8" chain so he can check as necessary.

The old Panasonic unit was mainly only supplied with a 1/8" chainwheel for Giant models, only some BikeTec Flyers varying, but the newer unit series can have either. 1/8" chains runs perfectly ok on the narrower sprockets. In theory the chain could become unstable when very worn, but the transmission fails in other ways long before that degree of chain wear is reached on the Panasonic units.

If Jackhandy renews the whole set, 1/8" is definitely the better option for longer life.
.

 

[BAH48]

"I saw that on Wikipedia too"

Plenty of other evidence if you could be bothered to look.

 

[Scimitar]

"Popcorn Wholesale? Send me out some cases, there's a WD40 wrangle starting."

 

[flecc]

Many serious sport cyclists use WD40 on derailleur sets. They know it's lubrication properties are minimal, but find it keeps their gear system far cleaner than more viscous lubricants which build gunge layers and clog idlers.