Advice on supplier for hub kit

I have decided to go over to the dark side for my next conversion and go with a hub. It is against all my core values and I feel dirty, but I'm going to do it anyway.

 

The donor bike is a 2017 Cannondale trail 5. It's an entry level mtb style with front suspension. Forks and 27.5" wheels. Dropouts are 135 mm and dont look stupidly shallow. The dropouts are hooded meaning fitting a torque arm may be difficult / impossible but I don't think that's a major issue. Want to stick with 9 speed cassette.

 

Brakes are currently mechanical but I think I have some hydraulic shimano brakes on the way. Rear rotor is 160mm but changing that to 180 looks trivial.

 

Motor needs to be beefy to deal with long steep hills, probably 50+ nm. I’m not especially heavy at 80kg but I will have shopping and so on.

 

I really want a current controller as opposed to speed. Ideally I want 48v. I already have a reasonable (if small) battery in a box that can handle quite high discharge current so might stick with that. I know lots of folks are not keen on a battery in a pannier but it suits me. Therefore, need to think about where to install and house the controller but this should be easy enough to solve. It must be a 250w kit - that is the motor must have 250w marked on it by the manufacturer. I’m not interested in bending the rules here. Ideally I’d buy a pre-built wheel.

 

I’ve looked at the DWG22C which looks ok, not sure where to buy with a current based controller? I know there are a pile of Bafang hubs that should also be suitable.

 

I really want to avoid needing to mess about splicing different connectors onto wires where possible so plug and play would be a big bonus.

Woosh is your most likely place to shopfor a 48v kit or there was one other UK seller but the names passes me by for now.

I think I really want a KT controller for decent current control and I don’t think woosh kits are kt controllers - happy to be corrected though. As far as I can make out they are speed controllers which wouldn’t work well for me. I really need to be able to set a low assistance level and get some assistance up to 15.5 mph. And only up the assistance on steep hills. Otherwise I’ll get fatter and lazier…

Edited July 3, 20241 yr by Bogmonster666

Kirby ebikes do a 48v 250w KT kit , though it is a front wheel kit.

Kirby ebikes do a 48v 250w KT kit , though it is a front wheel kit.

Had a Quick Look, no details on hub and only from wheel kits so I think they are out.

The current control is just a different firmware to flash the controller with. We have both. The main difference is you will notice a clear initial push when you increase the assistance level on speed firmware, not so on current firmware. Also, the speed firmware offers a little less assistance when you go over preset speed (10mph in 1, 11 in 2, 13 in 3, 14 in 4 and 15 in 5), less so when you are on current mode. The difference is rather subtle. I got the current firmware from lishui when an elderly lady asked if we could do something, that the bike starts too briskly for her. The current firmware fixes that. After the initial push which lasts for about 1 second, the difference is pretty much indiscernible.

I think I really want a KT controller for decent current control and I don’t think woosh kits are kt controllers - happy to be corrected though. As far as I can make out they are speed controllers which wouldn’t work well for me. I really need to be able to set a low assistance level and get some assistance up to 15.5 mph. And only up the assistance on steep hills. Otherwise I’ll get fatter and lazier…

If you want a complete kit, you'd need to trawl through 100s of listing on Amazon or Aliexpress. Alternatively, you can make a mix and match kit from any of the Chinese resellers, Ebay, Aliexpress or Amazon.

 

There are plenty of rear 250w freewheel kits with KT controllers on Amazon, but that limits you to 7-speed gears.

A 250W 36V Bafang G020 201 rpm rear wheel and then run it at 48V ?

Depending on your long steep hills you might need a big battery and a TA. Our hills are around 8% 0.7 miles and 12% 200 metres and for that I've a Gran Camino with DWG22C at 36V 17Ah, it's a well built bike and works a treat (although TBH the drivability of the 2021 speed firmware is pretty rough).

Even in normal mode the Woosh Lishui controller combines current and speed control.

 

This graph is NOT for the Woosh Lishui controller (apart from anything else that has 5 levels), but does show the sort of way I think the Lishui behaves. I can't find the correct graph.

 

Go mid drive

Go mid drive

[mention=36331]Bogmonster666[/mention] already got one of those on his 'crapbike') right name? And wants to give a hub a go and I'm looking forward to hearing his comparison with the tsdz2.

[mention=36331]Bogmonster666[/mention] already got one of those on his 'crapbike') right name? And wants to give a hub a go and I'm looking forward to hearing his comparison with the tsdz2.

That's easy. I've already done it for him: 48v hub-motor with KT controller = ebike nirvana. The same bike with 48v TSDZ2 = shite. For those of you without any comprehension or imagination, that's called a hyperbole.

 

Main differences are that with a KT controller, you can set the amount of assistance then pedal as hard or not hard as you like to get the speed you want. If you want to travel faster, you turn up the power or pedal harder. The TSDZ2 doesn't give smooth power. There's a pedal force threshold that seems to give two levels of power for each pedal assist level. If you pedal lightly, you get low power and if you pedal hard, you get the max power for that one of 4 assist levels. If you have a very long climb, you have to pedal hard for a long time, which is tiring. With the hub-motor, you can turn up the power and air pedal for a bit or pedal lightly if you want a rest.

 

The TSDZ2 is slightly noisier, probably because of its position rather than the actual noise level. The ride is slightly harsher due to the power going through the chain, and you have to be in the right gear all the time.

 

I can't detect any difference in handling in general riding on the road and trails, but if you wanted to do fast downhill rides, then the centralised mass of the CD would work better. I think the rear suspension works better with the TSDZ2 because of the reduced mass in the rear wheel, but that might be simply because I have different pressures in the two shock units. Theory says it should be better and that's what I can feel.

 

The crank drive is generally slower because you have to change down the gears to go up hills. You use slightly less battery with the TSDZ2 because you are generally forced to pedal harder. That's if you're just out for a relaxing ride, but if you're on an exercise mission, I think the hub-motor would probably win. When I'm fully fit, I will test this.

 

The last important difference is that you can have a legal throttle with a KT controller, which acts as an instant over-ride for max power. That's really useful if you want a spurt of speed at lights and roundabouts or when you get a hump-back bridge or something like that, or you can use it to air pedal whenever you want.

 

The TSDZ2 has a 15A controller. I was using a 14A KT one. I couldn't notice any difference in power or climbing ability, except on exceptionally steep hills, where the TSDZ2 wins, but now I have a 22 amp KT controller, which trounces the TSDZ2 at the expense of using more battery. The speed difference when climbing moderately steep hills is massively in favour of the hub-motor.

 

I think most people would be happy with the TSDZ2 if it were the only system that they tried. There's nothing really to complain about, and if you wanted to do some towing, it would be a good solution, but for normal riding, everything that the hub-motor does is better. It's only the comparison that shows up the TSDZ2 shortcomings. It's a bit like those guys that say they're happy with their cable disk brakes when they never tried hydraulic ones.

 

One last thing. The TSDZ2 is much easier to install. There are lots of ifs and buts when it comes to installing a hub-motor. In theory it's easy, but you often need to file drop-outs and offset the rim, then you need to sort out correct spacers to get the disc in line with the caliper. None of that is a problem for an experienced converter, but it's often a bit of a learning experience for a first timer. Some ready made hub-motor kits are not too bad in that respect.

 

I hope you find this useful. I try to be as objective as I can, as I have no dog in this fight and own both systems on exactly the same bike. If you want to come to Telford, you can try them yourself side by side.

Edited July 3, 20241 yr by saneagle

If you have a very long climb, you have to pedal hard for a long time, which is tiring.

you can just use the suplied throttle.

you can just use the suplied throttle.

Isn't that illegal?

That's easy. I've already done it for him: 48v hub-motor with KT controller = ebike nirvana. The same bike with 48v TSDZ2 = shite. For those of you without any comprehension or imagination, that's called a hyperbole.

 

Main differences are that with a KT controller, you can set the amount of assistance then pedal as hard or not hard as you like to get the speed you want. If you want to travel faster, you turn up the power or pedal harder. The TSDZ2 doesn't give smooth power. There's a pedal force threshold that seems to give two levels of power for each pedal assist level. If you pedal lightly, you get low power and if you pedal hard, you get the max power for that one of 4 assist levels. If you have a very long climb, you have to pedal hard for a long time, which is tiring. With the hub-motor, you can turn up the power and air pedal for a bit or pedal lightly if you want a rest.

 

The TSDZ2 is slightly noisier, probably because of its position rather than the actual noise level. The ride is slightly harsher due to the power going through the chain, and you have to be in the right gear all the time.

 

I can't detect any difference in handling in general riding on the road and trails, but if you wanted to do fast downhill rides, then the centralised mass of the CD would work better. I think the rear suspension works better with the TSDZ2 because of the reduced mass in the rear wheel, but that might be simply because I have different pressures in the two shock units. Theory says it should be better and that's what I can feel.

 

The crank drive is generally slower because you have to change down the gears to go up hills. You use slightly less battery with the TSDZ2 because you are generally forced to pedal harder. That's if you're just out for a relaxing ride, but if you're on an exercise mission, I think the hub-motor would probably win. When I'm fully fit, I will test this.

 

The last important difference is that you can have a legal throttle with a KT controller, which acts as an instant over-ride for max power. That's really useful if you want a spurt of speed at lights and roundabouts or when you get a hump-back bridge or something like that, or you can use it to air pedal whenever you want.

 

The TSDZ2 has a 15A controller. I was using a 14A KT one. I couldn't notice any difference in power or climbing ability, except on exceptionally steep hills, where the TSDZ2 wins, but now I have a 22 amp KT controller, which trounces the TSDZ2 at the expense of using more battery. The speed difference when climbing moderately steep hills is massively in favour of the hub-motor.

 

I think most people would be happy with the TSDZ2 if it were the only system that they tried. There's nothing really to complain about, and if you wanted to do some towing, it would be a good solution, but for normal riding, everything that the hub-motor does is better. It's only the comparison that shows up the TSDZ2 shortcomings. It's a bit like those guys that say they're happy with their cable disk brakes when they never tried hydraulic ones.

 

One last thing. The TSDZ2 is much easier to install. There are lots of ifs and buts when it comes to installing a hub-motor. In theory it's easy, but you often need to file drop-outs and offset the rim, then you need to sort out correct spacers to get the disc in line with the caliper. None of that is a problem for an experienced converter, but it's often a bit of a learning experience for a first timer. Some ready made hub-motor kits are not too bad in that respect.

 

I hope you find this useful. I try to be as objective as I can, as I have no dog in this fight and own both systems on exactly the same bike. If you want to come to Telford, you can try them yourself side by side.

The main reason I’m going over to the dark side is in the search of reliability. The TSDZ2 is great to ride but it’s a bit leaky. To get enough assistance on steep hills at a sensible cadence I’ve installed double chainrings but the chainline isn’t great and you need to think it through not to cross the chain. The transmission also wears quite quickly.

 

I like the TSDZ2 but when I bought it I didn’t realise how much I would come to depend on my bike. I really do need a bike with better brakes than the crapcycle, especially in the wet or when I am running late and want to go faster down nasty hills. So, new build with good brakes and reliability as the main requirements. I’ll still have the crapcycle as well, and an analogue bike. My feeling is that the crapcycle will get used less and become a ‘pub’ bike.

 

The TSDZ2 just feels good but not really a finished product. The TSDZ8 may be an improvement but lack of easy spare part availability really put me off.

The main reason I’m going over to the dark side is in the search of reliability. The TSDZ2 is great to ride but it’s a bit leaky. To get enough assistance on steep hills at a sensible cadence I’ve installed double chainrings but the chainline isn’t great and you need to think it through not to cross the chain. The transmission also wears quite quickly.

 

I like the TSDZ2 but when I bought it I didn’t realise how much I would come to depend on my bike. I really do need a bike with better brakes than the crapcycle, especially in the wet or when I am running late and want to go faster down nasty hills. So, new build with good brakes and reliability as the main requirements. I’ll still have the crapcycle as well, and an analogue bike. My feeling is that the crapcycle will get used less and become a ‘pub’ bike.

 

The TSDZ2 just feels good but not really a finished product. The TSDZ8 may be an improvement but lack of easy spare part availability really put me off.

In the 10 years of owning my hub-motor system, the electrical side has had zero issues and zero maintenance until last week, when I discovered that the battery connector had gone a bit rusty and wasn't making good contact. It's now cleaned and back to normal. In that time and around 10,000 miles, I replaced the chain once, the chainwheel once and the cassette once. The cassette and chainwheel were of unknown age and use when I built the bike, as I bought them used from Ebay. Apart from that, the only maintenance the drive train has had is the occasional squirt of epoid 90, and I once had to clean all the shite out of the derailleur after someone advised me that it would be a good idea to use dry lube instead, which didn't end well.

The TSDZ2 just feels good but not really a finished product. The TSDZ8 may be an improvement but lack of easy spare part availability.

Some of the tsdz2 parts are shared with the tsdz8: lcd, chain rings, lights, hydraulic brake sensors, gear shift sensor. The internal components will still be under warranty for another year before you see out of warranty spares being bought. If you go by what is available for the tsdz2 in the after sale market, you can guess that the same will be available for the tsdz8 about this time next year.

The dropouts are hooded and not much spare room. I think there should be just enough space. The washer in the diagram is m12 with an od of 25mm.

 

Any filling width will be towards the front so as not to thin the back. Might need to use a socket to tighten up the wheel nut.

It's very important that whatever sits outside the drop-out doesn't touch the lip. You can use a C-washer, a 20mm O/D 12mm I/D washer or one of the tapered anti-rotation washers, like the middle one below:

https://www.greenbikekit.com/e-bike-bldc-hub-motor-anti-torque-washers.html

I have Woosh DWG22C 48 volt kits installed on my tandem and on a solo bike. I was impressed enough after fitting the hub motor to the tandem to buy a second one for the solo. I’m just over 70Kgs and on a solo at least, the DGW22C has more than enough power for me. In fact, it might be slightly overkill on my solo, but I wanted parts commonality between the two bikes. The tandem weighs around 35Kgs and the solo about 25Kgs – in both cases, with rack / panniers / tools / battery etc.

 

The speed control of the Lishui controller is not especially sophisticated, but certainly perfectly acceptable. On both bikes, I tend use power level 2 most of the time, occasionally level 3 if there is a steep hill. On the solo, sometimes you can feel the power cutting in and out a bit on a gently undulating road.

 

For example, you may be doing a speed just above the cut-off of the set assistance level and if the speed drops, the motor chimes in. Speed then increases to just above the set level cut-off and assistance stops. Speed then falls slightly, the motor chimes in again, speed increases … on so on. You can end up constantly changing between a couple of gears*. It is far less noticeable on the tandem, probably due to the much greater mass of that machine.

 

This is far from a deal-breaker, but it’s one reason why I’d like to try current control. From the description saneagle gave in his post above, that would appear to provide a more consistent level of assistance. If this is something which Woosh can now offer, then I’ll give them a call.

 

* I'm a 'spinner' and like to maintain a steady cadence of around 90rpm. My gears (3 x 10 speed) are set up give around 5 rpm – 10rpm difference between ratios. That may not be a significant issue for many people.

I've done the comparison too. My 500w hubmotor is a lot stronger than the TSDZ2's. I believe this bike has a 22A KT controller. Easily shows 1000W on the KT LCD3 display when throttled. In contrast. the most I've seen on the Tongsheng is 11A, and the throttle is very subtle,

 

The higher power shows up in pedalling. I can cruise at 20-22 mph with effortless pedaling with the hubmotor, while it's a bit of work to go that fast on my TSDZ2. If you own one, you know what I mean. SHown is ny wofe's bike and my hubmotor.

 

 

Nonetheless, I never need to go much faster than 16 mph. WHen my wife and I ride around for fun, we ride her TSDZ2B and my TSDZ2, shown below.

 

I hope you find this useful. I try to be as objective as I can, as I have no dog in this fight and own both systems on exactly the same bike. If you want to come to Telford, you can try them yourself side by side.

Yes, a very useful summary of your comparison thankyou (and I read your original review a few weeks back too).

 

Now, cards on the table:

• I absolutely do not have the depth and breadth of your bike/ebike experience and apart from a brief period of ownership of my wife's hub motor (which I installed a KT controller on which improved the ride from the Pendleton original but at that stage I didn't have the TSDZ2 to do a side by side comparison), I have nil experience of hub motors .
  
• I fully appreciate that different folks want different ways to use their ebikes and how they have the power delivered - I so happen to want to ride as though I'm on an unassisted bike but with a level of help that assists in a way that is akin to having 'bionic legs' (not my term but one often used to describe the way the TSDZ2 and other torque sensing middrives deliver power in proportion to one's own efforts). Thus at hills I change down gear rather than up the power - I still enjoy a bit of a work-out albeit at a reduced level.
  

Your experience of the TSDZ2 differs in some respects to mine and iirc from your first review you have yet to try the Open Source Firmware. For instance:

There's a pedal force threshold that seems to give two levels of power for each pedal assist level. If you pedal lightly, you get low power and if you pedal hard, you get the max power for that one of 4 assist levels.

That's strange, I don't experience the power delivery like that at all. The level of assistance from the bike seems to be in direct proportion to my own efforts. I wonder if the torque sensor in your motor is not right. I know on Endless Sphere there is a number of posts talking about 'calibrating' the torque sensor but it's not something I've felt the need to look into but obviously some folk have.

The TSDZ2 is slightly noisier, probably because of its position rather than the actual noise level. The ride is slightly harsher due to the power going through the chain, and you have to be in the right gear all the time.

True enough to all of that - one of my TSDZ2 it noticably noisier than the other ones in my 'collection' and it does seem from what you read on ES and here, that some are indeed noisier. Being in the right gear all the time - yes indeed but for my type of riding as in 'like riding an unassisted bike' that suits me fine, but that doesn't suit a lot of ebike riders which is fair enough.

 

I will at some stage be looking to fit a front hub to our tandem should I ever get around to pumping up the tyres. I can't fit a rear hub as it's a Rohloff IGH and hence both bottom brackets are eccentric, so no mid drive either.

 

I do wish I could get up to Telford as I'd gladly take you up on your offer (and thanks for that) so I can make an informed choice about which front hub and controller I should go for (fave at the moment is a Bafang G370 or similar with KT controller/display). And finally, I wonder if the OSF on your TSDZ2 would give you a better ride experience although from your obvious preference to hub motors, and I can see why that is the case, faffing with OSF might well not be on your to-do list?

Yes, a very useful summary of your comparison thankyou (and I read your original review a few weeks back too).

 

Now, cards on the table:

• I absolutely do not have the depth and breadth of your bike/ebike experience and apart from a brief period of ownership of my wife's hub motor (which I installed a KT controller on which improved the ride from the Pendleton original but at that stage I didn't have the TSDZ2 to do a side by side comparison), I have nil experience of hub motors .
  
• I fully appreciate that different folks want different ways to use their ebikes and how they have the power delivered - I so happen to want to ride as though I'm on an unassisted bike but with a level of help that assists in a way that is akin to having 'bionic legs' (not my term but one often used to describe the way the TSDZ2 and other torque sensing middrives deliver power in proportion to one's own efforts). Thus at hills I change down gear rather than up the power - I still enjoy a bit of a work-out albeit at a reduced level.
  

Your experience of the TSDZ2 differs in some respects to mine and iirc from your first review you have yet to try the Open Source Firmware. For instance:

 

That's strange, I don't experience the power delivery like that at all. The level of assistance from the bike seems to be in direct proportion to my own efforts. I wonder if the torque sensor in your motor is not right. I know on Endless Sphere there is a number of posts talking about 'calibrating' the torque sensor but it's not something I've felt the need to look into but obviously some folk have.

 

True enough to all of that - one of my TSDZ2 it noticably noisier than the other ones in my 'collection' and it does seem from what you read on ES and here, that some are indeed noisier. Being in the right gear all the time - yes indeed but for my type of riding as in 'like riding an unassisted bike' that suits me fine, but that doesn't suit a lot of ebike riders which is fair enough.

 

I will at some stage be looking to fit a front hub to our tandem should I ever get around to pumping up the tyres. I can't fit a rear hub as it's a Rohloff IGH and hence both bottom brackets are eccentric, so no mid drive either.

 

I do wish I could get up to Telford as I'd gladly take you up on your offer (and thanks for that) so I can make an informed choice about which front hub and controller I should go for (fave at the moment is a Bafang G370 or similar with KT controller/display). And finally, I wonder if the OSF on your TSDZ2 would give you a better ride experience although from your obvious preference to hub motors, and I can see why that is the case, faffing with OSF might well not be on your to-do list?

Mine is a 48v version, so the change in power might be more noticeable. When I'm on the lower assist levels, I don't notice it so much.

 

I'm sure the OSF would be better than what I have. Maybe I'll try it over the winter. My plan was to use this bike for a 4 week trip starting two weeks ago, but illness has postponed it probably to next June now, as it has to be at this time of the year. I've got some sort of flu or covid that I've had for 4 weeks now. It's completely taken my strength away and makes me feel quite ill. I'm getting better, but very slowly.