A Statement from Bosch

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

We have been discussing at length a lot of things with Bosch.

Firstly, it appears that their lack of dedicated marketing and support to the UK up until now hasn't been due to the small market size (as we thought) its actually because their systems are 250w and 350w neither of which are currently legal to be used (current UK law is officially 200w - as has been discussed on here LOTs).

Recently, they (like us) have had confirmation that selling and using 250w is ok, so they are starting their dedicated UK support early in 2015. This should be good for dealers / brands and therefore help end consumers.

They have however issued a statement about the use of dongles on their bikes, and are sending me a couple of examples from Germany about why they are so concerned for their end customers who use, and the dealers who sell these products. They very much are not just being the "fun police". They are the worlds largest Ltd Company they take their social and legal responsibilities VERY seriously.

This is the statement.
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Is tuning allowed?

On the Internet in particular, you can find a variety of companies and individuals that offer a so-called tuning of the Bosch eBike System. As the component manufacturer, Bosch eBike Systems highly discourages making use of such products or attempting to manipulate the Bosch eBike System yourself: You generally reduce the life of the system and risk damage to the drive unit and the bike. There is also the risk that you will lose the right to assert guarantee and warranty claims for the purchased bike. Improper use of the system also jeopardizes your safety and that of other road users, and in case of an accident due to tuning, you risk high personal liability costs and possibly even the threat of criminal prosecution. For this reason Bosch eBike Systems calls on all eBike riders and providers to refrain from tuning.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best regards

Robert Bosch GmbH
Automotive Electronics, eBike Service (AE-EB/SSB1)
Gerhard-Kindler-Straße 3
72770 Reutlingen
GERMANY

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[Emo Rider]

A Bosch representitive recently told me same thing almost verbatem. It translates to me that performance dongle users are going to left high and dry if their bike fails during the warrenty period. He went on to say that equipment used to diagnose Bosch systems can detect use of performance dongles. Thanks for sharing this. It certainly clarifies the Bosch position on this often contriversal issue.

 

[mfj197]

And this is one reason why I'm not now buying a Bosch-powered KTM. I'm a commuter and when I cycled my 22-mile journey last week I did it in 1 hour 12 mins on my ageing road bike with pannier. The fastest I did it in on a legal pedelec back in August was 1 hour 25. I'd love a lightweight pedelec to give me a little assistance to knock maybe 5 mins off my time but mainly to help me do the journey day in day out.

It seems to me we are addressing the wrong issue. Rather than expending all this energy cracking down on the users of dongles why are we not instead lobbying to raise the bike speed limit to 20mph as per some parts of the US (which Bosch also supplies)? Surely we want to broaden the appeal of pedelecs to as many people as possible, and at the moment the 15mph constraint limits their usefulness to quite a proportion of potential users.

Michael

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

And this is one reason why I'm not now buying a Bosch-powered KTM. I'm a commuter and when I cycled my 22-mile journey last week I did it in 1 hour 12 mins on my ageing road bike with pannier. The fastest I did it in on a legal pedelec back in August was 1 hour 25. I'd love a lightweight pedelec to give me a little assistance to knock maybe 5 mins off my time but mainly to help me do the journey day in day out.

It seems to me we are addressing the wrong issue. Rather than expending all this energy cracking down on the users of dongles why are we not instead lobbying to raise the bike speed limit to 20mph as per some parts of the US (which Bosch also supplies)? Surely we want to broaden the appeal of pedelecs to as many people as possible, and at the moment the 15mph constraint limits their usefulness to quite a proportion of potential users.

Michael

This isn't a KTM statement - we're just sharing it with you. Its nothing to do with us as a brand.

They, and us aren't cracking down on anything, we're just protecting our businesses from potential liability issues, and also educating the customer base in the UK about the risks they take when they take what is essentially a "moped" out on the road without any of the insurance / registration that is required of this type of vehicle.

and yes, we are working to get sPedelecs a legal class to be used and registered for use in the UK. We're not daft, and neither are Bosch... we of course want to be selling them

But they won't be a bicycle class, they will be like a low powered moped, so you'll have to have insurance and register it, if it is even possible.

 

[Artstu]

I'm with mfj197 on this one. Until there is a change in the speed limit, e-bikes will have very limited appeal.

In the meantime perhaps Bosch and bike assembly companies should be addressing the issue of making bikes with much less drag above the cut-off speed.

It's also ridiculous to call a low power assisted bicycle a moped.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I'm with mfj197 on this one. Until there is a change in the speed limit, e-bikes will have very limited appeal.

In the meantime perhaps Bosch and bike assembly companies should be addressing the issue of making bikes with much less drag above the cut-off speed.

It's also ridiculous to call a low power assisted bicycle a moped.

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but you are arguing with companies like Bosch and KTM... who are huge and would of course like to be selling faster bikes if it was legally possible.

 

[Emo Rider]

I'm with mfj197 on this one. Until there is a change in the speed limit, e-bikes will have very limited appeal.

In the meantime perhaps Bosch and bike assembly companies should be addressing the issue of making bikes with much less drag above the cut-off speed.

It's also ridiculous to call a low power assisted bicycle a moped.

Ths is a Bosch statement and there are very many people that sell Bosch powered units that had ths information before today. KTM was the first to make this public on this forum. How anyone wants feel about this is, of course, should feel free to express their opinion. Just don't shoot the messenger. This affects all companies and brands selling Bosch units.

As far as less drag goes, there are many 700c wheeled Bosch, Yamaha, Panasonic, etc crank powered bikes across many brands that will have less drag than a MTB after cut off.

 

[Artstu]

but you are arguing with companies like Bosch and KTM...

I'm not arguing, simply pointing out issues you and Bosch should be addressing to improve your products. It comes as no surprise to me that you choose to ignore end-user feed-back though.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I'm not arguing, simply pointing out issues you and Bosch should be addressing to improve your products. It comes as no surprise to me that you choose to ignore end-user feed-back though.

we're not ignoring your feedback. I'm just saying we have to operate within the UK and EU law, you might want something different, and we may well agree with you... but we have to sell products that can be used legally. Bosch are investing massively in R&D and developing products that meet the needs of each market.

 

[Artstu]

I shall look forward to seeing a much lighter crank-drive KTM racing bike with a motor system that fully uncouples all the motor and associated gearing when above the cut-off speed. and all within current EU laws.

I also live in hope that a workable S-class bike class can be introduced here without any ridiculous conditions applied.

 

[mfj197]

Nobody's picking on KTM, and clarity about one of the major propulsion manufacturer's stance is good. But as I say, I think the general approach by a few of the manufacturers (and KTM have taken the fore on this) is flawed; they risk alienating their current or future customer base by sharp rhetoric against the use of dongles or speed pedelecs. I believe efforts could more productively be spent in lobbying for more legal access to pedelecs, some of which they are of course doing.

S-pedelecs might be the answer, but also they might not. Would a 250W pedelec with a 20mph top speed really need a separate moped-style classification (thinking common sense-wise rather than under current legislation)? I'm not interested in riding a moped - I've done my time on motorbikes and am thoroughly enjoying cycling now!

Michael

 

[Gubbins]

So,
Assuming we were to get 20mph allowed... would we be then chasing after 25?

 

[mfj197]

So,
Assuming we were to get 20mph allowed... would we be then chasing after 25?

No I don't think so. The bar should be set somewhere (unless the motor power is more accurately policed) but where it is currently set is below the cruising speed of a significant proportion of cyclists. Increasing the limit to encompass more cyclists would then allow them to enjoy the benefits of a pedelec without feeling they could go faster on their usual bike.

Michael

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

No I don't think so. The bar should be set somewhere (unless the motor power is more accurately policed) but where it is currently set is below the cruising speed of a significant proportion of cyclists. Increasing the limit to encompass more cyclists would then allow them to enjoy the benefits of a pedelec without feeling they could go faster on their usual bike.

Michael

yes, but it could be argued that eBikes aren't trying to replace your normal bikes, they are trying to replace the car / bus / tram / tube etc etc.

Its also interesting when you use them to commute, and find that your time from bed to desk is reduced, even if your ride time isnt faster, because you can simply get on your bike in your work clothes (if the weather is good) and spin to work at a decent speed, putting in no effort at all, and get to your desk with no need for a shower.

its not all about the bike speed. Everything in every other aspect of transport is about reducing your speed so don't expect the limit to be put up.

 

[Artstu]

Everything in every other aspect of transport is about reducing your speed so don't expect the limit to be put up.

I don't understand what you're saying?

HS2 isn't about slowing rail passengers down for instance.

 

[flecc]

On the roads it's all about slowing things down though, increasing amounts of 20 mph limit with pressure to extend that to all town and city residential roads. The old 50 limit now rapidly disappearing altogether with all reductions from 60 mph now drastically dropping to 40 mph or even 30 mph.

Congested motorways are also being variably speed sign limited in the interests of continuing flow rather than absolute speed. There's also strong pressure on politicians to reduce all country roads from their current national limit of 60 to 40mph since such a high proportion of remaining accidents occur on them.
.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Yes, sorry - I should have said road transport. Clearly trains and aeroplanes are trying to get faster.

 

[flecc]

Yes, sorry - I should have said road transport. Clearly trains and aeroplanes are trying to get faster.

I'd even amend that, since the circa 500 mph subsonic speed is now the accepted limit of commercial air travel. All thoughts of supersonic are now completely dropped post the unhappy Concorde experience of severe flying space restrictions and unacceptable costs.

The fast travel future is clearly train, now moving up to the 300mph mark and easily competing with aircraft over short to medium distance overall travel time.
.

 

[mfj197]

yes, but it could be argued that eBikes aren't trying to replace your normal bikes, they are trying to replace the car / bus / tram / tube etc etc.

Even in that situation increasing the speed cutoff makes pedelecs viable for more of the people who might be looking to replace their car / bus / tram or tube.

Its also interesting when you use them to commute, and find that your time from bed to desk is reduced, even if your ride time isnt faster, because you can simply get on your bike in your work clothes (if the weather is good) and spin to work at a decent speed, putting in no effort at all, and get to your desk with no need for a shower.

That is unlikely to be the case with the demographic intimated earlier in the thread - people who already cycle a reasonable distance to work. There's absolutely no way I'm cycling a round trip of 44 miles in my suit! Plus commuting isn't just a fair-weather activity - I need to get to work whatever the weather.

its not all about the bike speed. Everything in every other aspect of transport is about reducing your speed so don't expect the limit to be put up.

I don't agree with the sentiment that everything in every other aspect of transport is about reducing one's speed, but neither do I believe it has any applicability here. We're talking about a common-sense limit which in my view is set too low in law. The limit won't be put up if we don't ask for it to be, and that is my point - that is where I think the industry should be expending its effort, in lobbying for pedelecs to be applicable for a greater proportion of the population, rather than appearing to be the harbingers of doom and highlighting the dangers of dongles and S-pedelecs at every available opportunity. If pedelecs are more relevant and more viable for more people then you get more sales!

Michael

 

[oded]

yes, but it could be argued that eBikes aren't trying to replace your normal bikes, they are trying to replace the car / bus / tram / tube etc etc.

Its also interesting when you use them to commute, and find that your time from bed to desk is reduced, even if your ride time isnt faster, because you can simply get on your bike in your work clothes (if the weather is good) and spin to work at a decent speed, putting in no effort at all, and get to your desk with no need for a shower.

its not all about the bike speed. Everything in every other aspect of transport is about reducing your speed so don't expect the limit to be put up.

This exactly why i think that commuter electric bikes can handle the 25kph limit.

However, buying a high end machine (KTM or Haibike mtb) with the current speed limit, and these bike's prices, is a mistake. You're getting a great bike but end up using 50% of its potential...