48v systems

Michael Tame

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Hi guys. I was hoping that you could help. I'm quite new to this game. I am looking at this possibility of importing ebikes into the uk. The ones that i am looking at have rear hub motors and 48v systems (13 & 16ah). I have found that there are hardly any 48v systems available in the UK. Is there any reason for this? I can't find any regulations that say they are illegal. And there are one or two out there. Is there a problem with our power supply? Or do the brits just prefer 36v? In Germany, most rear hub motor bikes use a 48v system, and they seem to know a lot more about ebikes than we do! Please help!
 
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If the bikes you import have an EN15194 certificate, you have nothing to worry about as long as you check with the test house that the certificate is genuine. Many have been photo-shopped from valid ones.

48v is better than 36v in every respect, except maybe getting the bike certified. Anybody that tried 48v would prefer it, but most don't get the chance.
 
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anotherkiwi

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The thing is that EN15194 says 48v maximum and a 48v battery is 54.6v hot off the charger...

The German guys break the law quite a bit power wise, they are law abiding when it comes to safety though, I don't think you would find many riding recklessly around other people. But out on the open road...
 
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The thing is that EN15194 says 48v maximum and a 48v battery is 54.6v hot off the charger...

The German guys break the law quite a bit power wise, they are law abiding when it comes to safety though, I don't think you would find many riding recklessly around other people. But out on the open road...
It doesn't say 48v maximum. It says for electric bikes up to 48v, but it doesn't qualify that statement, so it's open to interpretation.
 

Danidl

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It doesn't say 48v maximum. It says for electric bikes up to 48v, but it doesn't qualify that statement, so it's open to interpretation.
I have come across some of this terminology before. The basis as I understand it is that old telecommunications equipement used to operate at voltages up to 48 50 volts.. the lead acid batteries in telephone exchanges were nominally 48v. But when fully charged might be closer to 56v The european low voltage directive allows single insulation for voltages below 50v ac or 70vdc... Above which cabinets need to be locked, and cables have two layers of insulation. This is why for instance loudspeaker connections on domestic hi fi amplifiers are still binding posts and banana connectors.
The directive allows voltages inside equipment to exceed these limits, but no externally accessible connection may exceed the limit. Eg laptops and gamegear video games would have had very high voltages for their flouresent backlights on their lcd displays, prior to leds, and were legal. But the li ion batteries were limited .
In the case of ebikes, even if the battery were to be charged in excess of 48v, but it was impossible to access the live terminals, they would be legal... As an example the Bosch charger and batteries have a communications sequence before the voltage is available.
The 48v standard , even if the voltage within the battery exceeds that level momentarily or occassionally would be seen as compliant. Provided the ebike would work properly at 48v.

What is interesting is that car electrics including starter motors , power steering, turbos are now moving to a 48v standard, with lithium ion battery as the strorage.
 

anotherkiwi

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We could go on to a long argument about semantics and the English language but:
"Due to the limitation of the voltage to 48 V DC, there are no special requirements applicable to the EPAC in regard to protection against electrical hazards."
"Limitation" here in this sentence can only be read as a maximum limit. There is no ambiguity there for me.

And:

1 Scope
This European Standard is intended to cover electrically power assisted cycles of a type which have a maximum continuous rated power of 0,25 kW, of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling.

This European Standard specifies safety requirements and test methods for the assessment of the design and assembly of electrically power assisted bicycles and sub-assemblies for systems using battery voltage up to 48 VDC or integrated a battery charger with a 230 V input.

This European Standard specifies requirements and test methods for engine power management systems, electrical circuits including the charging system for the assessment of the design and assembly of electrically power assisted cycles and sub-assemblies for systems having a voltage up to and including 48 VDC or integrated a battery charger with a 230 V input.

"up to" and "up to and including" are pretty simple concepts to understand IMVHO and up to 48v batteries are certainly easy to build: 12S 18650 cells with the charger limited to 48v and a BMS balancing to 4v per cell instead of 4.2v.

Now give please me a reason that prevents charging and balancing a 18650 cell at 4v other than wanting to print larger Ah numbers on the wrapper?
 
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Unfortunately or fortunately, that's still only your interpretation. The first clause is not a requirement for voltage. It's about requirements for electrical hazards. Only the scope gives any sort of guidance, and without a specific clause in the requirements section, that's all it is.
 

Danidl

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Unfortunately or fortunately, that's still only your interpretation. The first clause is not a requirement for voltage. It's about requirements for electrical hazards. Only the scope gives any sort of guidance, and without a specific clause in the requirements section, that's all it is.
Until there is a court case, all of our speculations are just interpretations. Why was the value of 48v initially arrived at? ... I suspect that the arguement I have presented would have been the genesis for that. The framers of the standard would have hunted around for a reasonable precedent and low there is one. The decision to base new car electrics on 48v would have similar reasoning.. a safe low voltage, capable of handling adaquate power without the resistance losses of a 12v system.and reduced copper cable and weight.
Now the engineers in the standards office know that if you want to charge a battery to 48v you need to supply a voltage above this so they would not be worried.. particularly if the charger and battery pack have secondary protection.
They also know that even in a 12v or. 36v system where there are inductive components, it is easy to achieve voltages in excess of 48v , and they are not concerned about these either. I doubt whether they would even be concerned if the external 48v was used in a convertor or invertor system to drive a 120v motor, provided there was never any prospect of the user coming into contact with this hazardous voltage.
Going with the arguement of charging the cells to 4v rather than 4.2 , there is a reduction in capacity but an improvement in longevity, so its a fair trade off.
 
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Going with the arguement of charging the cells to 4v rather than 4.2 , there is a reduction in capacity but an improvement in longevity, so its a fair trade off.
A 48v battery is 13S. 48 divided by13 is 3.7v, which is only half charged for a lithium battery.
 

Danidl

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Not according to some graphs I have seen. It will no doubt be chemistry dependent and the different additives may affect it slightly but these would show that in the 4.2 to 4.0 zone only 10% to 15% of the energy is stored.
Surely the 12s combo would be used instead? .. giving a theoretical maximum of 12x 4.2 or 50.2v and a nominal 48 at 4 volts and a fully discharged 3.6 x12 or 43v
 
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anotherkiwi

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https://eu.nkon.nl/sk/k/30q.pdf

I'm looking at the "Capacity & Temperature vs. discharge capacity" graph and thinking 5P12S so at 20 Amps battery continuous discharge each cell in the parallel group will be giving 4-5 A. On that curve there is 0.05 Ah difference per cell between 4.2v and 4v.

Is that 3 Ah for the whole battery? Been a long time since I did high school physics (I was first in my class at the time :)).
 
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Show us where you can buy a bike with a 12S battery! OP wants to import bikes, not make his own battery.
 

anotherkiwi

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I read his post. If he is importing bikes he can spec the battery I think? There are no shortage of 12S BMS and chargers out there in China, someone must be buying them?
 
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I read his post. If he is importing bikes he can spec the battery I think? There are no shortage of 12S BMS and chargers out there in China, someone must be buying them?
He can spec the battery as much as he likes, but do you think an e-bike supplier is going to set up it's own factory to make 12S batteries just for him?

These things are standard catalogue parts. you order 24v (7S), 36v (10S) or 48v (13S). There are no inbetweens. The only exceptions are LiFePO4, which are 8S, 12S and 16S at 3v per cell, and other strange chemistries, like lithium titanate.
 

anotherkiwi

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My questions are hypothetical, I can't see why it can't be done to stay within EN15194. Removing 1 cell per series group and using a 12S BMS isn't going to throw a spanner in a Chinese battery assembly line surely? And there are 12S chargers on the market, they do charge to 50.4v I agree.
 
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They're not available now, and it's not going to happen in the near future. It would be better to dream of something more useful, like the everlasting battery.
 

anotherkiwi

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Sorry d8veh I am not looking for an argument just throwing ideas around. I like thinking outside the box and as we have little chance of changing EN15194 trying to find a solution that works within the directive.

This is what I am dreaming about in the near future: https://eu.nkon.nl/sanyo-ncr20700b-lithium-battery.html
 

Danidl

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He can spec the battery as much as he likes, but do you think an e-bike supplier is going to set up it's own factory to make 12S batteries just for him?

These things are standard catalogue parts. you order 24v (7S), 36v (10S) or 48v (13S). There are no inbetweens. The only exceptions are LiFePO4, which are 8S, 12S and 16S at 3v per cell, and other strange chemistries, like lithium titanate.
d8veh, as McEnroe would say, you can't be serious. Getting battery packs of 12s would be as simple as sending a fax order and a cheque bankers draft. This is variance in a manufacturing sense. .. change a single resistor in the charger, disregard the top tier on the bms panel and fabricate 12s sticks of cells. Insert a blob of polystyrene where the extra cells would go , use the exact same housings.. sell them at slightly less than the 13s versions... Win win win. And the most expensive part... Printing the new labels.
 
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Michael Tame

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Thanks for the input guys. It seems that I have a lot to learn about batteries it seems! These are the batteries in question (only in German i'm afraid). Maybe this will help to clear it up
1) 4813ah https://leoncycle.de/shop3/NCM-MoscowMilanoVenice-48V-13Ah-624Wh-ErsatzakkuDEHAWK-i5-Li-Ion-Zellen-Akku
2) 4816ah (NB the one on the web-site is 4814ah, but the new ones will be higher capacity). https://leoncycle.de/shop3/NCM-MoscowMilanoVenice-48V-14Ah-672Wh-ErsatzakkuDEHAWK-i5-Panasonic-Zellen-Akku