20mph Speed Limit for Wales next year ?

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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Not cycles but ... thinking back to the 1950s (growing up) all heavy goods and bus’s carried a 20 mph disc on the rear of the vehicle , with the upgrading of trunk roads and new-motorways he law was amended as 1960 approached to 40 mph , and the nation was amass with cycling clubs .
Indeed. Also the maximum width of a lorry or bus had been 7 feet 6 inches, but that was also changed to 8 feet.

Later in going metric on joining the EU that became just over 8 feet 4 inches, a total increase of 10 inches.

So for two modern lorries or buses passing, nearly two feet of road width had been lost.
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WheezyRider

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Wishful thinking. Their penny has already dropped, knowing what a car does for them. Keeps them warm when it's cold, dry when it's wet. Carries all their groceries and other bulky shopping, plus recycling to the council depot. Takes the kids to and from school, college, gyms and sports fields. Carries immediate family, other relatives and friends on essential journeys and leisure trips. Keeps all of them them much safer and protected in any collision.

We've built a car culture and trying to undo that is proving nigh on impossible, as London has shown. We have a congestion charge and ultra low emision zone charges making car driving horribly expensive. We've spent countless millions on cycling facilities and regular cycling has enormously increased. But it's still under 5% of the population, and as the GLC ruefully comment, three-quarters of them fit young men, so not exactly getting drivers out of cars.

After all those changes and expense, the real winner hasn't been cycling, it's been public transport. Our bus fleet for example has doubled from 4,500 to over 9,000. East London now has the automated Docklands Light Railway. South London now has a tram network and Crossrail has opened. Surface rail now has some longer platforms and new longer trains to suit

That's all good of course, much better than rush hour roads choked with cars, but it hasn't got rid of any cars, just some of their commuting usage.
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Build it and they will come:


That was getting on for two years ago, Paris has not gone back and it has a huge number of people getting about by bike now, in a city that was not that different in terms of car use to London.

The trouble is in the UK, there are too many people in positions of power with a similar mindset, who cannot see cycling as a serious mode of mass transport. While this continues, uptake of cycling will be held back.

Millions have been spent on infrastructure in the UK, but it has been badly done in most cases. Money has often been wasted on schemes that are sub standard, or just haven't been thought out properly. Little of this infrastructure conforms to the government's own LTN/120 standard. Often it is a shared pedestrian path, simple paint on the road, sends cyclists way off the beaten track through dodgy neighbourhoods, or just stops and vanishes at a critical location. In addition they are not maintained or gritted in winter. Hence they do not get used. Cyclists feel they have to continue using dangerous roads and more vulnerable groups are put off cycling because of the state of things. This means that numbers of people on bikes do not increase as they should in most cases.

Anyway, although a few million have been spent on cycle infra recently in the UK, it completely pales into insignificance compared to what is spent in this country on car infra. A single relatively simple junction/roundabout can cost hundreds of millions and car infra in total costs many billions every year - all paid for by general taxation, whether you own a car or not. Road infrastructure costs every adult in the UK something like £2000 a year in taxation. A negligible proportion of this is spent on cycle infra.

The Dutch have shown when there is the right mindset what can be achieved - and please don't say about the Netherlands not modernising as fast after the war again, so it was easier for them - it's not true. Look at any footage from the 70s and you will see Amsterdam and most town centres full of cars. No, it involved a huge public battle there in the 70s to start introducing cycling infrastructure, to develop it and keep perfecting it, by continuing to invest significant sums of money. It wasn't until well into the 80s that progress was made. The result is better health, less pollution, less congestion in cities and a thriving economy.



The French have introduced cycling infra to Paris and this shows what can be done and the impact it can have in a very short space of time when the will is there to implement the obvious - from lessons already learned by others.

As for what can be transported by bike:

48083

This is an example by the London cycle delivery company PedalMeApp, posted today. They have a range of cargo bikes and trailers and transport all sorts of stuff across the capital. Cargo bikes are starting to be used by plumbers and electricians in London as they are far cheaper and more efficient than running a van on congested roads.

Sales of cargo bikes in the UK are increasing rapidly as people begin to realise they are far better for doing the school run than having a second car. Some people have even found with cargo bikes they can go completely car free.

Not everyone owns a car in the UK. In some places, nearly 50% of homes do not have a car. The number of young people taking driving tests continues to fall.

I am not anti-car, I own several myself, but it's horses for courses and in built up areas, in most cases, bikes are best. With the rising cost of living and rising fuel prices, an ever greater number of people will be forced to get rid of their cars.

Wales implementing a default 20 mph speed limit on roads not designated as higher speed is only the implementation of what the whole of the UK has signed up to - the UN Stockholm declaration:


Unless it can be shown to be safe to travel over 30 kph (approx 20 mph) in built up areas, then the default speed should be 30 kph (or 20 mph).

This is all explained here:


Even if drivers do break the limit, average speeds are reduced and every mph less means a significant reduction in harm if a collision occurs due to the energy of the moving vehicle being proportional to the square of the speed.

So Wales is only doing what will be inevitable eventually in the rest of the UK.
 

flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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The trouble is in the UK, there are too many people in positions of power with a similar mindset, who cannot see cycling as a serious mode of mass transport. While this continues, uptake of cycling will be held back.
As I've posted before, it's just as much our cyclists who hold back cycling. Their helmets, lycra, drop handlebars etc. are very off putting compared with the photos in your link, which is the best way to get normal people to consider it:





Millions have been spent on infrastructure in the UK, but it has been badly done in most cases. Money has often been wasted on schemes that are sub standard, or just haven't been thought out properly. Little of this infrastructure conforms to the government's own LTN/120 standard. Often it is a shared pedestrian path, simple paint on the road, sends cyclists way off the beaten track through dodgy neighbourhoods, or just stops and vanishes at a critical location. In addition they are not maintained or gritted in winter. Hence they do not get used. Cyclists feel they have to continue using dangerous roads and more vulnerable groups are put off cycling because of the state of things. This means that numbers of people on bikes do not increase as they should in most cases.
Agreed, but do you see that changing?

The Dutch have shown when there is the right mindset what can be achieved - and please don't say about the Netherlands not modernising as fast after the war again, so it was easier for them - it's not true.
I said nothing of the sort.

I said it took much longer for the Netherlands to recover after the war, so being poorer, cycling didn't disappear by the 1970s as it did here. Their well over 40% still cycling gave their government a far better chance in 1972 to halt the slide into cars when their cycling program began. For us it was too late then, hardly any adults still cycled and bike shops all over Britain were shutting.

In future if you want to quote me, use the forum's quote facility, don't invent your version of what I post to mislead others.
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StuartsProjects

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Every time I have been out cycling in my city the last couple of week, and I have taken a count, 'Lycra' wearers are between 2% and 5% of all cyclists. I did keep a lookout for Geraint, but he seems busy on some touring holiday based in France.
 

StuartsProjects

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I can recall visiting Amersfoot in Holland, in 1975.

Was amazed at the already very well developed cycling infrastucture, cycle paths everywhere, nice and wide alongside most major roads, priority at jucntions and light. Most all of it looked like it had been in place for many years.

Maybe they started develeopment sometime before the '70s'
 

Nealh

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Funially enough whilst on his touring hoiliday in France today, a new kid on the block took a leaf out of Geraint's book and blasted up Alpe d'huez as if out on a sunday jaunt.
 
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flecc

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I can recall visiting Amersfoot in Holland, in 1975.

Was amazed at the already very well developed cycling infrastucture, cycle paths everywhere, nice and wide alongside most major roads, priority at jucntions and light. Most all of it looked like it had been in place for many years.

Maybe they started develeopment sometime before the '70s'
It was 1972 they started their post war program according to the Dutch government web site I read long ago. That was when their decline in cycling started to alarm them. From Wikipedia:

"Road building traditions go back a long way and they are influenced by many factors. But the way Dutch streets and roads are built today is largely the result of deliberate political decisions in the 1970s to turn away from the car centric policies of the prosperous post war era."

However, they did have a long and more widespread history of cycling than the rest of Europe so did have lots of facilities historically in place, some as early as the previous century, something we had never had.

Rather than these constant arguments about others, we'd make more progress once it's accepted where the blame here lies, and it is NOT always the authorities or drivers. Cyclists here are too often their own worst enemies.

I've repeatedly explained this in here but it's never accepted that cyclists can be to blame, so we don't get anywhere.

And anyway, cycling for the Dutch isnt always so great. Read this post from a long standing Dutch pedelecs member.
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WheezyRider

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It was 1972 they started their post war program according to the Dutch government web site I read long ago. That was when their decline in cycling started to alarm them. From Wikipedia:

"Road building traditions go back a long way and they are influenced by many factors. But the way Dutch streets and roads are built today is largely the result of deliberate political decisions in the 1970s to turn away from the car centric policies of the prosperous post war era."

However, they did have a long and more widespread history of cycling than the rest of Europe so did have lots of facilities historically in place, some as early as the previous century, something we had never had.

Rather than these constant arguments about others, we'd make more progress once it's accepted where the blame here lies, and it is NOT always the authorities or drivers. Cyclists here are too often their own worst enemies.

I've repeatedly explained this in here but it's never accepted that cyclists can be to blame, so we don't get anywhere.

And anyway, cycling for the Dutch isnt always so great. Read this post from a long standing Dutch pedelecs member.
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Again Flecc, we are going to have to agree to disagree. I don't have time to go through every single one of the dubious points you raise (amongst the good ones) and explain why you are incorrect. I end up having to paraphrase things you have said in multiple threads, sometimes going back a couple of years and you take exception to that. So I'll leave it there.

The main point I want to get across is that many people have a mentality in this country that mass cycling could not happen here and they make excuses, we are not like the Netherlands etc. However, we can do it here and it need not take that long - others have already learned how to do things properly and done the groundwork. There is a lot of pent up demand, but it will not take off until the infra is there - Build it and they will come! This is what we are seeing in London as the superhighways expand and they are being used more and more by people not wearing Lycra. In any case, so what if there was a fad for road bikes a few years ago? Many of those people "with all the gear" are not the serious racing crowd. Britain was on top in terms of winning medals etc and we even had some winners of the Tour de France. Is it such a surprise people will buy a road bike and outfits with the desire to emulate that?

I have not said cyclists are never to blame for anything. However, making out that cyclists are to blame for discouraging others from cycling, eg by wearing helmets is unhelpful. People often wear helmets because they don't want to be victim blamed for not wearing one should an incident occur.

48091

The post you quote from someone in the Netherlands is from ten years ago. Things have moved on. The scooters he is talking about (snorfiets) were banned from cycle lanes years ago. Cycling infrastructure capacity has been increased and improved enormously in that time. On top of this, he seems to be someone who wants to go around at speed, which I thought you were against?
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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Again Flecc, we are going to have to agree to disagree.
Yes that is agreed.

We are never going to agree on a couple of fundamentals, particularly "build it and they will come" and the way too many cyclists here appear to the general public (normal people!).
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StuartsProjects

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Britain was on top in terms of winning medals etc and we even had some winners of the Tour de France. Is it such a surprise people will buy a road bike and outfits with the desire to emulate that?
Maybe, but the real reality is that those cyclists that take to the roads trying to emulate Tour\Medal winners etc are in a very small insignificant minority, maybe then 2-5% of the cyclists I see. Its a complete non-issue.

Every day I go out the vast majority of cyclists I see are wearing normal clothes and some dont even wear helmets.
 

flash

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Bring back the man with the red flag walking in front.