20mph Speed Limit for Wales next year ?

20mph Limit for Wales

 

"Ministers say a 20mph speed limit will lower road collisions and traffic noise and encourage people to walk and cycle."

Edited July 12, 20223 yr by StuartsProjects

Just a shame 99% of drivers will take absolutely no notice of that speed limit, unless there's a speed camera on a particular stretch of road.

 

Plenty of 20mph speed zones up here and I've yet to witness anyone abide by them

In practice all speed limits mean the next 10 up is what is observed.

 

80 on motorways.

 

40 in 30 limits.

 

So it follows that 30 is the norm in 20 limits.

 

My London borough has been 20 limited for years now, but even the police routine patrol drivers treat it at just touching 30.

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Plenty of 20mph speed zones up here and I've yet to witness anyone abide by them

Yes, but they still go slower than they would if it were nominally 30mph.

 

We should declare all speed limit signs to denote kph unless explicitly marked mph. That would give an immediate reduction in speed limits at minimal infrastructure cost. New signs could gradually be introduced in places where the speed in kph was agreed to be too slow.

Boris won't go for that, we've been Brexited.

 

Oh no, I forgot, the twat's not PM anymore

Yes, but they still go slower than they would if it were nominally 30mph.

 

Indeed, which is a good thing, from a cyclist perspective.

 

I also suspect that whilst lots of areas (including wales) have introduced some 20mph limits, observation is low since its often not so obvious when your half way through a 20mph zone what the limit actually is.

I also suspect that whilst lots of areas (including wales) have introduced some 20mph limits, observation is low since its often not so obvious when your half way through a 20mph zone what the limit actually is.

 

Our London borough swamped us with repeater signs and again at every junction, so no excuse here for not knowing it's 20 mph.

 

Many modern cars display the current limit on the dashboard, mine does. Below is photo I took some while ago within my 20 limit area, the car making that very clear to me:

 

20mph is, dare I say it, too slow. Quite a few cruise controls don't work below 30mph (in my experience anyway), and the discipline to stay at/below 20mph manually is too great for the average driver to maintain for any distance.

 

If you're really serious about limiting speed, then add decent road-width sleeping policemen - that will do the trick. But leave a slot on the kerb edge for cyclists to zip through without getting whacked by the humps.

20mph is, dare I say it, too slow. Quite a few cruise controls don't work below 30mph (in my experience anyway), and the discipline to stay at/below 20mph manually is too great for the average driver to maintain for any distance.

 

Agreed, it can be hard work maintaining too slow a speed in i.c. cars, even 30 in some is far from easy to keep to. Could be self solving problem though, since it's very easy in e-cars given the precision of their control. I can easily maintain any speed in mine, even fractions of one mph

 

If you're really serious about limiting speed, then add decent road-width sleeping policemen - that will do the trick. But leave a slot on the kerb edge for cyclists to zip through without getting whacked by the humps.

 

Some cars make them look useless though. A Fiat Tipo I had in the 1990s was uncomfortable over them at 20 but I noticed better when travelling faster. So I experimented and found that it was best at around 40mph, shrugging them off as if they weren't there.

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20mph is, dare I say it, too slow. Quite a few cruise controls don't work below 30mph (in my experience anyway), and the discipline to stay at/below 20mph manually is too great for the average driver to maintain for any distance.

 

If you're really serious about limiting speed, then add decent road-width sleeping policemen - that will do the trick. But leave a slot on the kerb edge for cyclists to zip through without getting whacked by the humps.

 

When driving a ICV using gears with a analogue speedometer it is difficult to maintain a specific speed but that will soon change - new cars now will provide a warning about the speed limit.

 

The perception might be that the speed is too slow but the reality during the day is that any congestion, traffic lights, roundabouts etc will decrease speed, so that by maintaining a lower speed you will arrive at the same time. I see this every time I am overtaken in a 40mph stretch that lasts for 2 miles, as I overtake all of them within the next 3 holdups (traffic lights etc).

 

Sleeping policemen do not work to stop speeding - I have them outside the front of my house & everyday I hear someone's exhaust banging against it as the car is driven at speed over the top or they just go up onto the pavement. Its just the law abiding who slow down.

 

Also road humps are uncomfortable to those with certain disabilities plus cause discomfort to ambulance patients etc.

 

My take is why not have a variable speed limit, applied like on Bus lanes, so that is 20mph from say 6am to 8pm them 30mph overnight.

 

That way when the majority of users are about & the average speed is already low you stop harsh acceleration & braking but at night with virtually no traffic you allow a higher speed.

I t seems that Welsh councils are to be given the final say on roads in their area.

Near me the is one stretch of nearly straight road with variable spread out housing or none, sometimes street lights, patches with none and about 5 miles long. It's all 30mph. There are pavements, which are invariably empty and visability is good with only a couple of T junctions. It's an A road (such as they are round here) but most would consider it quiet.

As there are not regular street lamps there are 30mph repeaters every 8 seconds, as are required. To change this lot to 20 (and they probably will) will cost a fortune. But that's ok 'cos Ceredigion obviously has money to burn.

They've said it will cost about 3.5 million nationally - jeez:eek:

Good news.

 

The imposition of a standard default 20mph limit on 'restricted' roads has just been approved in Wales and will come into effect next year.

Forget 20mph - let's drop it to 15.5mph, and then fit bicycles with red flags to indicate that horseless carriages may not pass. Do I win?

I like to think that the perception of 'too slow' and being overtaken by bicycles might slowly help the penny drop for some people, and allow them to realise what a bike or ebike can do for them.

I like to think that the perception of 'too slow' and being overtaken by bicycles might slowly help the penny drop for some people, and allow them to realise what a bike or ebike can do for them.

 

Wishful thinking. Their penny has already dropped, knowing what a car does for them. Keeps them warm when it's cold, dry when it's wet. Carries all their groceries and other bulky shopping, plus recycling to the council depot. Takes the kids to and from school, college, gyms and sports fields. Carries immediate family, other relatives and friends on essential journeys and leisure trips. Keeps all of them them much safer and protected in any collision.

 

We've built a car culture and trying to undo that is proving nigh on impossible, as London has shown. We have a congestion charge and ultra low emision zone charges making car driving horribly expensive. We've spent countless millions on cycling facilities and regular cycling has enormously increased. But it's still under 5% of the population, and as the GLC ruefully comment, three-quarters of them fit young men, so not exactly getting drivers out of cars.

 

After all those changes and expense, the real winner hasn't been cycling, it's been public transport. Our bus fleet for example has doubled from 4,500 to over 9,000. East London now has the automated Docklands Light Railway. South London now has a tram network and Crossrail has opened. Surface rail now has some longer platforms and new longer trains to suit

 

That's all good of course, much better than rush hour roads choked with cars, but it hasn't got rid of any cars, just some of their commuting usage.

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Car Drivers here are already moaning that they will be overtaken by Cyclists . No doubt they will be repeating the usual mantra about Cyclists not having tax , insurance , number plates ,cycle profiency testing and anything else that they can come up with .

Drivers who have to pay are doing so as a previlege to keep on polluting, there bleating of how cycles pay nothing don't have a cause or even a leg to stand on with their whimsical grizzles.

Edited July 14, 20223 yr by Nealh

What I have noticed in the last few weeks is that observance of the 20mph limit (as default on all urban roads) is getting better in my area.

 

With the addition of the recent publicity about passing distances for cyclists, you have less of that 'your in a jet stream' feeling as a car whizzes past doing 15-20mph more than you on a cycle are doing.

What I have noticed in the last few weeks is that observance of the 20mph limit (as default on all urban roads) is getting better in my area.

 

With the addition of the recent publicity about passing distances for cyclists, you have less of that 'your in a jet stream' feeling as a car whizzes past doing 15-20mph more than you on a cycle are doing.

 

Good to learn that. My borough has been 20 limit for several years now ande the biggest improvement over time hasn't been in strict observance of the 20 mph. It's been in road manners, lots more courtesy and giving way than there ever used to be. Abuse of others on the roads which was very common 20 or so years ago just doesn't exist any more, most seem to have much more time for each other.

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Not cycles but ... thinking back to the 1950s (growing up) all heavy goods and bus’s carried a 20 mph disc on the rear of the vehicle , with the upgrading of trunk roads and new-motorways he law was amended as 1960 approached to 40 mph , and the nation was amass with cycling clubs .

Not cycles but ... thinking back to the 1950s (growing up) all heavy goods and bus’s carried a 20 mph disc on the rear of the vehicle , with the upgrading of trunk roads and new-motorways he law was amended as 1960 approached to 40 mph , and the nation was amass with cycling clubs .

 

Indeed. Also the maximum width of a lorry or bus had been 7 feet 6 inches, but that was also changed to 8 feet.

 

Later in going metric on joining the EU that became just over 8 feet 4 inches, a total increase of 10 inches.

 

So for two modern lorries or buses passing, nearly two feet of road width had been lost.

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Wishful thinking. Their penny has already dropped, knowing what a car does for them. Keeps them warm when it's cold, dry when it's wet. Carries all their groceries and other bulky shopping, plus recycling to the council depot. Takes the kids to and from school, college, gyms and sports fields. Carries immediate family, other relatives and friends on essential journeys and leisure trips. Keeps all of them them much safer and protected in any collision.

 

We've built a car culture and trying to undo that is proving nigh on impossible, as London has shown. We have a congestion charge and ultra low emision zone charges making car driving horribly expensive. We've spent countless millions on cycling facilities and regular cycling has enormously increased. But it's still under 5% of the population, and as the GLC ruefully comment, three-quarters of them fit young men, so not exactly getting drivers out of cars.

 

After all those changes and expense, the real winner hasn't been cycling, it's been public transport. Our bus fleet for example has doubled from 4,500 to over 9,000. East London now has the automated Docklands Light Railway. South London now has a tram network and Crossrail has opened. Surface rail now has some longer platforms and new longer trains to suit

 

That's all good of course, much better than rush hour roads choked with cars, but it hasn't got rid of any cars, just some of their commuting usage.

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Build it and they will come:

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54353914

 

That was getting on for two years ago, Paris has not gone back and it has a huge number of people getting about by bike now, in a city that was not that different in terms of car use to London.

 

The trouble is in the UK, there are too many people in positions of power with a similar mindset, who cannot see cycling as a serious mode of mass transport. While this continues, uptake of cycling will be held back.

 

Millions have been spent on infrastructure in the UK, but it has been badly done in most cases. Money has often been wasted on schemes that are sub standard, or just haven't been thought out properly. Little of this infrastructure conforms to the government's own LTN/120 standard. Often it is a shared pedestrian path, simple paint on the road, sends cyclists way off the beaten track through dodgy neighbourhoods, or just stops and vanishes at a critical location. In addition they are not maintained or gritted in winter. Hence they do not get used. Cyclists feel they have to continue using dangerous roads and more vulnerable groups are put off cycling because of the state of things. This means that numbers of people on bikes do not increase as they should in most cases.

 

Anyway, although a few million have been spent on cycle infra recently in the UK, it completely pales into insignificance compared to what is spent in this country on car infra. A single relatively simple junction/roundabout can cost hundreds of millions and car infra in total costs many billions every year - all paid for by general taxation, whether you own a car or not. Road infrastructure costs every adult in the UK something like £2000 a year in taxation. A negligible proportion of this is spent on cycle infra.

 

The Dutch have shown when there is the right mindset what can be achieved - and please don't say about the Netherlands not modernising as fast after the war again, so it was easier for them - it's not true. Look at any footage from the 70s and you will see Amsterdam and most town centres full of cars. No, it involved a huge public battle there in the 70s to start introducing cycling infrastructure, to develop it and keep perfecting it, by continuing to invest significant sums of money. It wasn't until well into the 80s that progress was made. The result is better health, less pollution, less congestion in cities and a thriving economy.

 

https://www.centreforpublicimpact.org/case-study/focusing-bicycles-transport-urban-netherlands/

 

 

The French have introduced cycling infra to Paris and this shows what can be done and the impact it can have in a very short space of time when the will is there to implement the obvious - from lessons already learned by others.

 

As for what can be transported by bike:

 

 

This is an example by the London cycle delivery company PedalMeApp, posted today. They have a range of cargo bikes and trailers and transport all sorts of stuff across the capital. Cargo bikes are starting to be used by plumbers and electricians in London as they are far cheaper and more efficient than running a van on congested roads.

 

Sales of cargo bikes in the UK are increasing rapidly as people begin to realise they are far better for doing the school run than having a second car. Some people have even found with cargo bikes they can go completely car free.

 

Not everyone owns a car in the UK. In some places, nearly 50% of homes do not have a car. The number of young people taking driving tests continues to fall.

 

I am not anti-car, I own several myself, but it's horses for courses and in built up areas, in most cases, bikes are best. With the rising cost of living and rising fuel prices, an ever greater number of people will be forced to get rid of their cars.

 

Wales implementing a default 20 mph speed limit on roads not designated as higher speed is only the implementation of what the whole of the UK has signed up to - the UN Stockholm declaration:

 

https://www.who.int/news/item/17-05-2021-streets-for-life-campaign-calls-for-30-km-h-urban-streets-to-ensure-safe-healthy-green-and-liveable-cities

 

Unless it can be shown to be safe to travel over 30 kph (approx 20 mph) in built up areas, then the default speed should be 30 kph (or 20 mph).

 

This is all explained here:

 

https://www.20splenty.org/

 

Even if drivers do break the limit, average speeds are reduced and every mph less means a significant reduction in harm if a collision occurs due to the energy of the moving vehicle being proportional to the square of the speed.

 

So Wales is only doing what will be inevitable eventually in the rest of the UK.

The trouble is in the UK, there are too many people in positions of power with a similar mindset, who cannot see cycling as a serious mode of mass transport. While this continues, uptake of cycling will be held back.

 

As I've posted before, it's just as much our cyclists who hold back cycling. Their helmets, lycra, drop handlebars etc. are very off putting compared with the photos in your link, which is the best way to get normal people to consider it:

 

 

 

Millions have been spent on infrastructure in the UK, but it has been badly done in most cases. Money has often been wasted on schemes that are sub standard, or just haven't been thought out properly. Little of this infrastructure conforms to the government's own LTN/120 standard. Often it is a shared pedestrian path, simple paint on the road, sends cyclists way off the beaten track through dodgy neighbourhoods, or just stops and vanishes at a critical location. In addition they are not maintained or gritted in winter. Hence they do not get used. Cyclists feel they have to continue using dangerous roads and more vulnerable groups are put off cycling because of the state of things. This means that numbers of people on bikes do not increase as they should in most cases.

 

Agreed, but do you see that changing?

 

The Dutch have shown when there is the right mindset what can be achieved - and please don't say about the Netherlands not modernising as fast after the war again, so it was easier for them - it's not true.

 

I said nothing of the sort.

 

I said it took much longer for the Netherlands to recover after the war, so being poorer, cycling didn't disappear by the 1970s as it did here. Their well over 40% still cycling gave their government a far better chance in 1972 to halt the slide into cars when their cycling program began. For us it was too late then, hardly any adults still cycled and bike shops all over Britain were shutting.

 

In future if you want to quote me, use the forum's quote facility, don't invent your version of what I post to mislead others.

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Edited July 14, 20223 yr by flecc

Every time I have been out cycling in my city the last couple of week, and I have taken a count, 'Lycra' wearers are between 2% and 5% of all cyclists. I did keep a lookout for Geraint, but he seems busy on some touring holiday based in France.

I can recall visiting Amersfoot in Holland, in 1975.

 

Was amazed at the already very well developed cycling infrastucture, cycle paths everywhere, nice and wide alongside most major roads, priority at jucntions and light. Most all of it looked like it had been in place for many years.

 

Maybe they started develeopment sometime before the '70s'