1-1-2016 Today's Change in the Law.

[flecc]

It that actually what they said? Or are they just offering to treat Le1-A as EPAC with respect to cycle lanes, helmets, licensing etc?

No chance!

Restrictions they are good at, easements are just not in UK government repertoire.
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[flecc]

Conversely, the EU's 1999 ill conceived regulation exempting electric bicycles without a hand base throttle, based on principles, without due consideration to millions of disadvantaged elderly citizens fundamental rights, which it was primarily supposed to assist - as healthy riders do not require assistance, has created the silly situation of placing the normal powered electric bicycles within the type approval system for motor vehicles along with the justifiable placement of the higher powered and higher speed electric bicycles.

If the above could be reversed by the EU Commission, who insisted on its inclusion despite representations to change it, it would resolve all the current problems and ensure the EAPC / EPAC would fulfill all the member states citizens who require this small additional assistance to maintain a eco friendly fit and health lifestyle into their old age without the fear of being outside the letter of the law.

Unfortunately, it appears that common sense no longer plays a part when composing these new regulations.

While very true, I can see no chance of this changing since rhe present law is gradually becoming an old world standard:

Originating in Japan, the EU including the UK now, our Crown Protectorates, Singapore, and Australia have adopted it and China is phasing it in.

The problem as I see it is that any government faced with needing to pass e-bike law into force will be tempted to just follow something well established elsewhere. I'm convinced that's how the EU formed their law, just by almost exactly copying what Japan already had in force in 1999. The fact that the best e-bikes were already available from there to that standard while the EU had none to speak of was probably an influence.
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[anotherkiwi]

But where in UK legislation does it state that a bicycle must conform to EN15194 to be used on the road? (Or EN 14764 for that matter). Self builders and converters can't conform to these standards (can't do the testing) but that doesn't (shouldn't) prevent them using their bikes on the road. If it did this would be a lot bigger than just ebikes, it would affect anyone who builds or modifies any kind of cycle.

Come to think of it, the cycle we are talking about can't conform to EN15194, since it has a throttle, so it doesn't have to have a frame number either...

If you are a self builder and you want to pass SVA you will want to present a bike that conforms to both those standards. You don't have to do the testing just assemble a kit that is conform to EN15194 onto a bike that is conform to EN14xxx and provide the correct documentation including a self signed (you are the manufacturer of the end product) CoC.

EN14xxx applies to bike which are destined to be sold. A self builder of a bicycle does not have to comply. If you are a smart (oops a pun) self builder however you will use only the best certified components, especially if you are going for SVA.

 

[craiggor]

I don't think any self built car or motorcycle with a home made chassis/frame will have any certification to pass on to the SVA tester.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Which is why we are talking about putting certified kits on certified bikes... It is self built but from certified bits. On the CoC the builder is the manufacturer. Then your SVA test center will decide if it is up to scratch or not. If it isn't then you did something wrong.

For pete's sake you have kit cars in the UK. Those don't even exist on this side of the water and you can't get a damned bike with a full speed throttle through an SVA? What is wrong with you people...

 

[craiggor]

No need for certified kits or bikes,if they are all very well.If not certified just like if parts are not e marked the tester gets his measuring sticks out.

 

[flecc]

For pete's sake you have kit cars in the UK. Those don't even exist on this side of the water and you can't get a damned bike with a full speed throttle through an SVA? What is wrong with you people...

There's nothing wrong with us! There isn't any class for e-bikes to even enter into the SVA scheme in the UK. The lowest possible entry point is the Low Powered Moped class, soon to be L1e-A once the new type approval legislation is fully in place which will not be before January 2017.

Meanwhile the requirements for the Low Powered Moped class cannot be remotely met by any pedelec on the market, they have to be extensively altered with moped and motorcycle standard parts.

And the DfT has no answer for this problem, dodging every inquiry with circular statements which lead nowhere.
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[shemozzle999]

While very true, I can see no chance of this changing since rhe present law is gradually becoming an old world standard:

Originating in Japan, the EU including the UK now, our Crown Protectorates, Singapore, and Australia have adopted it and China is phasing it in.

The problem as I see it is that any government faced with needing to pass e-bike law into force will be tempted to just follow something well established elsewhere. I'm convinced that's how the EU formed their law, just by almost exactly copying what Japan already had in force in 1999. The fact that the best e-bikes were already available from there to that standard while the EU had none to speak of was probably an influence.
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I am afraid this un-elected / appointed college of Commissioners have forgotten that they work for us, the citizens, and their rulings have to obey the fundamental rights of the citizens and no matter how difficult they make the routes for objections to their decisions, an example being that if you want to have a petition heard by them you have to raise 1 million citizen signatures drawn from across at least 7 member states, they have a duty to get things right.

 

[Ruadh495]

I think SVA and Type Approval are both red herrings here. The question is whether an ebike with a throttle is to be regarded as a pedal cycle or as a motor vehicle. SVA/Type Approval are only applicable if it's a motor vehicle.

So is the requirement not to be considered a motor vehicle in the U.K. still conformation to the EAPC Regulations 1983 as amended 2015? Or have those regulations now been replaced by EU 168/2013 exemption "h"? Does EU 168/2013 affect use or only sale?

This appears to be what the DfT are saying. You can have a throttle but you have to seek "Type Approval" (EU 168/2013 applies but exemption "h" does not). The words "Type Approval" imply that this is legally a motor vehicle. That means Le1-A and since the DfT are saying they will treat type approved twist and goes as pedal cycles they must be proposing to treat Le1-A as pedal cycle.

How about cycles which are exempt from 168/2013 on one of the other exemptions? A recumbent trike with a R height less than 540mm for example. Does EAPC1983 still apply in that case?



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[Ruadh495]

EU 168/2013 section 4:
This Regulation should be without prejudice to measures at national or Union level regarding the use of L-category vehicles on the road, such as specific drivers’ licence requirements, limitations of maximum speed or measures regulating access to certain roads.

So 168/2013 doesn't appear to affect use. Also chapter 1 of 168/2013 specifically states that 168/2013 does not apply to individual vehicle approvals.

So does that leave the 1983 UK regulations (amended 2015) in force with regard to the use of self-builds and modifications? My next build is likely to be a recumbent trike intended to be used by a registered disabled person, so 168/2013 exempt on several grounds. What legislation does apply? Presumably EAPC1983, so it can have a throttle.

 

[flecc]

I think SVA and Type Approval are both red herrings here. The question is whether an ebike with a throttle is to be regarded as a pedal cycle or as a motor vehicle. SVA/Type Approval are only applicable if it's a motor vehicle.

Not a red herring, 168/2013 makes it clear that anything not exempt is a motor vehicle needing type approval. DfT previous and very recent advice documents have maintained the same. That is why I say their ruling that a throttle e-bike will be considered an EAPC is nonsense, proved by the DfT admitting this is not valid elsewhere in the union. I think they may be relying on a petty detail to avoid EU criticism, we say EAPC, the EU says EPAC.

So is the requirement not to be considered a motor vehicle in the U.K. still conformation to the EAPC Regulations 1983 as amended 2015? Or have those regulations now been replaced by EU 168/2013 exemption "h"? Does EU 168/2013 affect use or only sale?

No, the EAPC regulation and amendment is not replaced by 168/2013 since that is not pedelec law. 168/2013 only affects use, sale is not legislated on and any illegal vehicle can be sold in the union without committing an offence.

This appears to be what the DfT are saying. You can have a throttle but you have to seek "Type Approval" (EU 168/2013 applies but exemption "h" does not). The words "Type Approval" imply that this is legally a motor vehicle. That means Le1-A and since the DfT are saying they will treat type approved twist and goes as pedal cycles they must be proposing to treat Le1-A as pedal cycle.

Yes, type approval does indeed mean a throttle equipped pedelec is a motor vehicle, there is no escaping that.

They are NOT proposing to treat L1e-A as a pedal cycle, underlined by them accepting the compulsory group Q driving licence for L1e-A.

How about cycles which are exempt from 168/2013 on one of the other exemptions? A recumbent trike with a R height less than 540mm for example. Does EAPC1983 still apply in that case?

Such a recumbent trike or bike without a throttle is an EAPC, with a throttle it's a motor vehicle in law, but the DfT say they will still treat it as an EAPC.

Ruadh495, it's pointless trying to examine this issue rationally. The simple fact is that the DfT, in an attempt to please the pro-throttle lobby, announced this throttle ruling without properly looking at the implications. They are now embarrassed by that fact and are probably not sure how to get out of the mess they've created without cancelling their advice. Hence their vague responses to calls for clarification, referring us to motorcycle SVA while knowing there is no class we can use for that purpose to get a pedelec approved.

Eventually the outcome will be made clear. They may create a UK only SVA approval class. They may reverse their ruling eventually, blaming the L1e-A type approval law requirements when it's finalised to get themselves off the hook.

Or they may just continue to hope the issue will go away if ignored, which appears to be the current approach. This could work, since virtually all e-bikes currently being sold are pedelecs, so the throttle issue will disappear over time as it did in mainland Europe long ago.
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[Ruadh495]

Such a recumbent trike or bike without a throttle is an EAPC, with a throttle it's a motor vehicle in law, but the DfT say they will still treat it as an EAPC.


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What makes it a motor vehicle? Or rather, if this is a motor vehicle, why is a pedelec not a motor vehicle? The recumbent is exempt from 168/2013 because of it's seat height, not under the exemption which covers pedelecs. So what legislation rules on it's power output, assist speed, or throttle. But then ambulances are also exempt, so exemption from 168/2013 does not exclude classification as a motor vehicle. What law, then, defines a pedelec as not a motor vehicle?

Hoverboards are also exempt from 168/2013 (no seat) and the DfT says they are motor vehicles, using the 1983 EAPC regulations.

It seems that the 1983 EAPC Regulations are needed alongaside 168/2013 to control the various exemptions and should have been amended again to include the wording used in 168/2013.

Actually that sort of makes sense. Both are in force. So an ebike with a throttle which is type approved to Le1-A (if they ever sort it out) can also be an EAPC and treated as a pedal cycle if it conforms to the 1983 regulations. So the UK EAPC category covers EU EPACs and some Le-1A motor vehicles. The UK can have a usage category like that under 168/2013 section 4.

Of course that doesn't really work. The EAPC regulations only require 250W, 15.5mph and state that such will be treated as a pedal cycle, so the authorities are in breach if they then require a motor vehicle type approval (and in breach of 168/2013 if they don't) The same machine is both a motor vehicle and not a motor vehicle. But it's probably as close to rationality as we are going get on this.

Self builds are not covered by 168/2013, but there is no specific exemption so unless otherwise exempt (i.e. EPAC) they require SVA to Le1-A. So a recumbent which is exempt from 168/2013 because of it's seat height could theoretically have a throttle under the EAPC regs without type approval, but I wouldn't like to rely on it.

They really need to amend the EAPC regs again to match 168/2013 and stop suggesting bikes with throttles are anything other than motor vehicles (unless built in 2015, like mine, of course ;-) ).

 

[flecc]

What makes it a motor vehicle? Or rather, if this is a motor vehicle, why is a pedelec not a motor vehicle?

All two wheel powered vehicles fall under 168/2013 unless specifically exempted. A throttle pedelec isn't exempted so falls under 168/2013 rules on L class motor vehicles and therefore is one. Pedelecs being exempted from type approval means they remain recognised as being just bicycles. It's not worth looking for any logic in this, there isn't any.

The recumbent is exempt from 168/2013 because of it's seat height, not under the exemption which covers pedelecs. So what legislation rules on it's power output, assist speed, or throttle.

It qualifies for exemption on both (h) and (k). Remember, 168/2013 doesn't set any of the exemption law factors, each exempted type has it's own separate laws. 168/2013 only refers to those.

But then ambulances are also exempt, so exemption from 168/2013 does not exclude classification as a motor vehicle. What law, then, defines a pedelec as not a motor vehicle?

As above, 168/2013 doesn't set the laws for exempted classes, ambulances have their own construction rules. There is no law defining a pedelec as not being a motor vehicle, only laws saying that they are not treated as such.

Hoverboards are also exempt from 168/2013 (no seat) and the DfT says they are motor vehicles, using the 1983 EAPC regulations.

Hover Boards, Segways and the like are, like ALL powered vehicles, banned from public use by the Highway Act 1835. This act ensures that only the vehicles having specific laws permitting them (overrruling that act) can be used.

They really need to amend the EAPC regs again to match 168/2013 and stop suggesting bikes with throttles are anything other than motor vehicles (unless built in 2015, like mine, of course ;-) ).

Absolutely, as I said previously, they should never have made the throttle and type approval statement.

In fact 168./2013 is just a combination of several documents, including the 2002/24/EC type approval law which contained the same exemptions. That was sent to us on 9th April 2003 by the EU with an accompanying instruction to remove or amend any conflicting laws. The DfT failed to do that, had they done so at the time by amending the EAPC law, we would never have had the 2015 amendments and silly throttle statements.
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[Ruadh495]

Hover Boards, Segways and the like are, like ALL powered vehicles, banned from public use by the Highway Act 1835. This act ensures that only the vehicles having specific laws permitting them (overrruling that act) can be used.

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Exactly. And the law which permits pedelecs is the EAPC Regulations 1983. So a 250W bike permitted by those regulations could be either a 168/2013 exempt pedelec (h) or require type approval Le1-A if fitted with a throttle. EAPC1983 would still allow the type approved bike to be used with no other restrictions, while a 500W bike also type approved Le1-A would be treated as a moped as it falls outside EAPC1983.

Absent any other law governing trikes with seat heights >540mm, our recumbent is 168/2013 type approval exempt under exemption k and so governed only by EAPC1983. Which permits a throttle by failing to mention it. It doesn't need to conform to exemption h as well.

Yes, it's ridiculous, but I think I can see where the DfT are coming from with their advice. Assisted recumbents are so rare they just haven't considered that one.

 

[flecc]

Absent any other law governing trikes with seat heights >540mm, our recumbent is 168/2013 type approval exempt under exemption k and so governed only by EAPC1983. Which permits a throttle by failing to mention it. It doesn't need to conform to exemption h as well.

I'm afraid not. Exemption (k) means it doesn't have to be type approved, but the EAPC law as amended says power must stop when pedalling ceases.

The DfT's failure to mention those low recumbents can mean there's no avenue to have throttles on those, since only type approval make that possible
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[Ruadh495]

I'm afraid not. Exemption (k) means it doesn't have to be type approved, but the EAPC law as amended says power must stop when pedalling ceases.

The DfT's failure to mention those low recumbents can mean there's no avenue to have throttles on those, since only type approval make that possible
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So there has been an amendment to the EAPC regulations subsequent to the Statutory Instrument of 12/01/2015 (2015 No.24)?

Has it not been published? I can only find the 2015 Amendment which raises the power limit to 250W, the assist speed to 15.5mph, removes the weight limit and the limit on number of wheels. It doesn't contain wording to the effect that power can only be applied while the pedals are in use.

Which means an EAPC with a throttle is still legally an EAPC, but the adoption of 168/2013 on 1/1/16 means that it requires type approval. That appears to be what the DfT are saying in their guidance.

I agree there should have been a further amendment to fully harmonize with 168/2013, but has this actually happened? I assume another statutory instrument would be required and this should have been published?

 

[flecc]

Which means an EAPC with a throttle is still legally an EAPC, but the adoption of 168/2013 on 1/1/16 means that it requires type approval. That appears to be what the DfT are saying in their guidance.

Not so. New pedelecs could not legally have a throttle after 10th November 2003, the date when parliament adopted into UK law the mandatory EU order 2002/24/EC. From that date the EAPC regulations were illegally in conflict with the EU law which has primacy. The 2015 ammendments to the 1983 UK pedelc regulations were merely a very belated correction of something that should have happened in the six months between 9th May 2003 and 10th November 2003.

I repeat, the DfT's statement that a pedelec with throttle is still an EAPC if type approved is legally a nonsense. The mandatory type approval regulations do not exempt it as one, so as not being pedelecs they've been illegal Low Powered Mopeds since 2003. That fact has been well understood for years, as has the fact that they cannot meet the type approval requirements.

Link to 2002/24/EC
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[Ruadh495]

Nothing in 2002/24/EC or 168/2013 affects the regulations which a member state imposes with regard to the use of vehicles within it's borders. The permission to use an EAPC on UK roads (overriding the Highways Act 1835) does not read "EU Type-Approved", it consist of the EAPC regulations.

So what prevents the UK from permitting the use of vehicles other than in accordance with type approval? It appears the UK has been doing this since 2003. Particularly in the case of single vehicles, which both 2002/24/EC and 168/2013 explicitly don't cover.

This would appear to be the DfT's position. The law covering road use is the EAPC regulations and the need for EU type approval is a separate issue.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Which is why we are talking about putting certified kits on certified bikes... It is self built but from certified bits. On the CoC the builder is the manufacturer. Then your SVA test center will decide if it is up to scratch or not. If it isn't then you did something wrong.

For pete's sake you have kit cars in the UK. Those don't even exist on this side of the water and you can't get a damned bike with a full speed throttle through an SVA? What is wrong with you people...

SVA of kit cars is now so expensive....you dont see much change out of £800,....it has pretty much killed off the lower priced kit car market....so dont wish the same for pedelecs.
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

So what prevents the UK from permitting the use of vehicles other than in accordance with type approval? It appears the UK has been doing this since 2003. Particularly in the case of single vehicles, which both 2002/24/EC and 168/2013 explicitly don't cover.

This would appear to be the DfT's position. The law covering road use is the EAPC regulations and the need for EU type approval is a separate issue.

The DfT don't appear to accept your reading of the position. In response to inquiries throughout the 12 years between 2002/24/EC and the 2015 they maintained that the position was unclear and would need to be tested by the courts to be sure.

Here's a link to their guidlines in October 2005 to illustrate some more of what I've been posting.
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