£2,000 toy fund - but what to spend it on ?
- Thread starter MS666
- Start date
The only way to really know the answer is to get the same person to ride both although their style of riding could affect the result. There is plenty of people singing the praises of the Bosch system even without Eddie. In addition alot of people love the Impulse. My advice is take a Bosch for a test ride if you have a local dealer nearby I am sure you will be impressed. One key advantage Bosch has is the large number of bikes to choose from. I have ridden the Impulse and preferred the Bosch though the test ride was at the Cycle Show. If you are ever in Norfolk I would be happy to let you test ride one of our Bosch powered bikes.
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....but surely the cycling ability of the rider (and dare i say the weight of bike and rider combined) is a bigger factor than the differences in the (legal) crank and hub bikes ??? the only other factor would be using higher powered motors/controllers/battery voltage, so comparison with these versus 'legal' bikes is misleading........ impulse,bosch,panasonic, and the large variety of hub motors will all do an assist job uphills....the differences will be marginal to a regular cyclist and more pronounced initially to a less experienced rider until fitness improves.......riding technique of course can also play a part especially with the crank drives where gear selection and cadence become more important for optimum assist.
if one needs throttle and does not wish to pedal uphill then a 50cc scooter or motorbike would be much more suitable.....there are also of course ebikes which are high powered and would need registering as a moped and would be better hill climbers than all the legal bikes........a big choice now available in ebikes to satisfy all budgets and different user requirements, so one bike will never be better than another in all respects just different strengths and weaknesses for each rider.........
regards
... but ... are there any real hills in Cromer (or at the Cycle Show) ?
My comment was about real world hill climbing aspects rather than responsiveness on start / riding on the flat or on test tracks.I agree with you there are ten a penny Bosch system bikes to choose from so every style is catered for but the bike design will make a difference too, especially with a pedelec system. And also agree with you about the Impulse being fitted on a small range of bikes, because it is exclusive to Kalkhoff and therefore not available from many dealers.
I only made the point because of a very sweeping statement that left out one of the best hill-climb assist systems there is in the non-S Pedelec category especially set against some of the other systems mentioned (!)
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Yes we have hills in Cromer and close by in surrounding areas. Also base Bosch comments on experiences locally and people who have tested the system in very hilly areas. To me it seems that the Bosch and Impulse systems are the two best hill climbing systems. I would be very interested to hear your comments regarding the Bosch system if you get the chance for a test ride (in proper conditions with variable terriain). The reason I like the Bosch is the variety of options available from different bikes.... but ... are there any real hills in Cromer (or at the Cycle Show) ?
I agree with you there are ten a penny Bosch system bikes to choose from so every style is catered for but the bike design will make a difference too, especially with a pedelec system. And also agree with you about the Impulse being fitted on a small range of bikes, because it is exclusive to Kalkhoff and therefore not available from many dealers.
I only made the point because of a very sweeping statement that left out one of the best hill-climb assist systems there is in the non-S Pedelec category especially set against some of the other systems mentioned (!)
If you want to be able to do that your best bet would likely be to fit a kit / convert a normal bike which is easily removed when you're ready to return to unassisted riding. I'm doing this with a 9sp 27-gear Trek MTB which I'm trying very hard to modify in a way that it can be restored with no evidence of ever having been an eBike. So far I've managed it with the exception of a hydraulic brake cutoff switch integrated into the disc brake line, which could very easily simply be disconnected and stopped off if I convert back but everything else is untouched.
As you correctly say a crank-drive bike is nigh on a one-way ticket to eBike. A Storck eBike is a step up on most hub drive bikes as a non-electric bike, but if downstream reversion to regular bike is in your sights then you can get much nicer bikes that are cracking to ride as either eBikes or with mods removed as pure bikes like they were before conversion. You can easily fit a kit like a Xipi to them (or have it fitted for you). There are also the Bafang & CST kits which take longer to arrive and a bit more work to hook up (CST) and/or without integrated LCDs (CST/BPM), but involve very minor mods.
If you want a CST kit that lets you run a conventional cassette and keep all your gears without fitting a freewheel, you can get them from China and build yourself or else Xipi have a CST kit which can be fitted to almost any bike in an afternoon from April.
.... sounds like a good deal.
So it's basically the choice of bikes as much as the system ? If I get the chance I'll definitely test the Bosch in varying terrains on a proper test ride but as I'm not buying another bike at the moment will wait for the opportunity.
Just to reiterate the reason I posted my original comments on the Impulse was Kudos' comments below, which I felt had a material omission in the 'analysis'
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For a given weight of rider plus bike and 250 watts available there should be no difference between hub or crank drive bikes let alone Bosch/Impulse/Panasonic etc crank drives.
If the motor is capable of providing its 250 watts power through most of its rev range via a good electronic controller there should be little if any difference in hill climbing ability.
A crank drive does allow the use of a cheaper motor and controller but does not automatically mean better hill climbing.
How about someone doing a supervised test between a Storck Raddar Multitask hub drive and their same bike available with the Bosch crank drive. It would test how good the different motor and controllers are.
Do not forget regardless of a crank drive motor being able to vary its gearing to the back wheel it only should produce the same power as a hub drive. A good motor and controller should be capable of producing virtually full power from zero revs.
If the motor is capable of providing its 250 watts power through most of its rev range via a good electronic controller there should be little if any difference in hill climbing ability.
A crank drive does allow the use of a cheaper motor and controller but does not automatically mean better hill climbing.
How about someone doing a supervised test between a Storck Raddar Multitask hub drive and their same bike available with the Bosch crank drive. It would test how good the different motor and controllers are.
Do not forget regardless of a crank drive motor being able to vary its gearing to the back wheel it only should produce the same power as a hub drive. A good motor and controller should be capable of producing virtually full power from zero revs.
Storcker....there is the world of difference between hub drive and crank drive in hill climbing ability but the latest BPM motors have started to close that difference. The analogy of a car is a good one,on a 6 speed car gearbox,the hub drive is like riding in 4th gear,but with the crank drive you can hill start in first gear. The latest BPM hub motors have a maximum torque setting lower in the speed range which is probably like hill starting in 2nd gear. In my range of cycles I have every motor and gear combination so it is easy for me to compare.
I have invited Storck to bring their bikes to the Redbridge Cycling event in April....it would be interesting to compare the hillclimbing ability of the Storck(Multitask) hub v KTM(Macina Bold) Bosch drive v Kudos BPM/CST(Arriba) v Kudos TCM motor(Ibex) v Tonara Enduro.....unfortunately the only bike missing from that comparison will be the Storck.
I am afraid your statement quote 'do not forget regardless of a crank drive motor being able to vary its gearing to the back wheel it only should produce the same power as a hub drive' is confusing power and torque. Remember that the hub motor is a fixed unit within the wheel,its speed is controlled by the speed of the road wheel-if that speed falls below the minimum speed of the motor then the power will fall below 250 watts and the torque is similarly reduced.
The ability to shift gears on a crank drive bike allows the motor to maintain its full power whatever the gear selected,thus allowing maximum torque to be generated whatever the road speed.
Having said the foregoing I find hub drive bikes with a torque sensor a delightful bike to ride,the power is intuitive and supports the rider input and unless my riding was always in a steep hill situation that would be my choice of bike.
Ask Storck to present their bikes for testing,they claim 60Nm of torque so it should be an equal match for my Kudos Ibex,with same torque figure.
KudosDave
I have invited Storck to bring their bikes to the Redbridge Cycling event in April....it would be interesting to compare the hillclimbing ability of the Storck(Multitask) hub v KTM(Macina Bold) Bosch drive v Kudos BPM/CST(Arriba) v Kudos TCM motor(Ibex) v Tonara Enduro.....unfortunately the only bike missing from that comparison will be the Storck.
I am afraid your statement quote 'do not forget regardless of a crank drive motor being able to vary its gearing to the back wheel it only should produce the same power as a hub drive' is confusing power and torque. Remember that the hub motor is a fixed unit within the wheel,its speed is controlled by the speed of the road wheel-if that speed falls below the minimum speed of the motor then the power will fall below 250 watts and the torque is similarly reduced.
The ability to shift gears on a crank drive bike allows the motor to maintain its full power whatever the gear selected,thus allowing maximum torque to be generated whatever the road speed.
Having said the foregoing I find hub drive bikes with a torque sensor a delightful bike to ride,the power is intuitive and supports the rider input and unless my riding was always in a steep hill situation that would be my choice of bike.
Ask Storck to present their bikes for testing,they claim 60Nm of torque so it should be an equal match for my Kudos Ibex,with same torque figure.
KudosDave
Never. The power at zero revs is at it's minimum, it's the torque that is at the maximum then.
You also misunderstand the 250 watts meaning, it is entirely notional and there for legal reasons. The maximum power from our legal e-bike motors varies from about 350 watts to well over 700 watts. The crank drive motors tend to use somewhat lower powers to preserve the transmission, the lower powers facilitated by the ability to use maximum power at lower speeds for climbing. Hub motors need their higher power to overcome the disadvantage of the motor not having selectable gears.
for info.......info direct from storck.........
storck 25.5v system is approx 35-40nm limited to 15mph in uk
storck 36v system will be approx 60nm
storck multitask raddar is currently 25.5v limited system in uk.....36v system still in development and not yet available in uk.......but should be a straight swop onto the bike.......no mods required.....
25.5 system can be modified for use where 15mph not applicable......ie it can be derestricted.
i am 75kg wet through.....the storck (19kg) takes me up 1000ft climb over a 2 mile distance....(thats quite steep). my wisper alpino (27kg) also takes me up this same climb no problem.
i have been cycling for years and at 60 i am reasonably fit. i cannot do that climb on even the lightest road bike or gear 27 on a light mountain bike, so the assist for me is essential uphill.
i can confirm that both bikes mentioned will give uphill assistance with a reasonable input from the rider.
i have not found the bosch system gives superior overall assist, but does need a modification to my usual riding style when going uphill for optimum performance.
they are all highly satisfactory ebikes in my opinion which is based on experience of having extensive use of the bikes......individual specs are available to suit all......make sure you get a bike that fits you for both comfort and cycling efficiency.....a good bike shop will give you a correct fitting.......
regards
Comparing a car engine to the way an electric motor fed by an electronic controller is just wrong.
I assume you are thinking that if you connect a simple electric motor to a battery it will produce very little power if forced to revolve slowly, that is true.
A motor in the hub ungeared like the Storck can produce huge torque at zero revs. I find that if I come to a stop on a steep hill and with the brakes on to prevent rolling back but rest a foot on one of the pedals in preparation to pull away the motor sensing my foot pressure attempts to overcome the brake such is the torque available from stationary.
Of course I do not personally have any figures for the actual torque produced at zero revs on the Storck compared to that at the back wheel of any other bikes, does anyone?
Electric motors are used nowadays to provide control on machine tools that require full power from stationary under full load. Brushless motors are like steppper motors and with a good electronic controller the output is under full control of the electronics, indeed the motor could be used as a electric brake by providing reverse torque if so designed.
I agree it would be interesting to see an independent testing regime for Ebikes but we all know that will never happen.
flecc I do not misunderstand the 250 watts meaning but have probably not explained my thoughts sufficiently.
I meant that the motor with its controller can, if so designed, produce its designated full power at extremely low revs, when stationary but producing high torque the power consumed produces no movement but lots of heat.
To comply with legislation it is the motors output that has to be limited which is a combination of torque and revs. A controller can be set up to produce high torque at low revs, keeping within the 250 watt maximum, then limit torque as the revs rise to keep the power under the legal limit.
Storcker....I rode the Storck bike at the NEC show 2011...it performed similar to all other 250 watt hub motored bikes,similar to my Kudos King bike in its performance....since then some of us have started to fit the BPM motors into our hub bikes,which do have a performance profile giving improved slower speed power.
I rode the Storck bike immediately followed by the AVE-MH7,I must say the acceleration of the AVE bike was much superior to the Storck bike,since then I have ridden many Bosch crank drive bikes and they all exhibited better acceleration than the Storck bike,my personal favourite was the Cannondale bikes.
The Storck hub bike is a beautiful engineered bike, a work of art in fact but it is interesting that Storck have subsequently produced a Bosch drive bike,so they themselves realised the shortcomings of the hub drive bike.
The latest asian crank drive bikes have moved the hill climbing abilities of crank drives a step further on,and at very attractive price levels-there were many testers of my Kudos Ibex bike at the London Excel show who described this TCM motored bike the highest torque ebike they had ever ridden.
We don't need an independent testing regime,I have a lot of respect for the knowledge of pedelec members on this forum and most of the better hill climbing bikes will be available for testing at the Hog Hill,Redbridge event. I am looking forward to the KTM's,Haibikes,Woosh CD,Kudos Ibex all available for hillclimbing testing,sadly the Storck bike wont be there,they were invited-golden opportunity to reveal this 60 Nm torque figure. I have always thought that the Storck bike is really a competitor to my Kudos Arriba bike (Thun torque sensor,Tektro brakes and BPM/CST hub motor).
KudosDave
I rode the Storck bike immediately followed by the AVE-MH7,I must say the acceleration of the AVE bike was much superior to the Storck bike,since then I have ridden many Bosch crank drive bikes and they all exhibited better acceleration than the Storck bike,my personal favourite was the Cannondale bikes.
The Storck hub bike is a beautiful engineered bike, a work of art in fact but it is interesting that Storck have subsequently produced a Bosch drive bike,so they themselves realised the shortcomings of the hub drive bike.
The latest asian crank drive bikes have moved the hill climbing abilities of crank drives a step further on,and at very attractive price levels-there were many testers of my Kudos Ibex bike at the London Excel show who described this TCM motored bike the highest torque ebike they had ever ridden.
We don't need an independent testing regime,I have a lot of respect for the knowledge of pedelec members on this forum and most of the better hill climbing bikes will be available for testing at the Hog Hill,Redbridge event. I am looking forward to the KTM's,Haibikes,Woosh CD,Kudos Ibex all available for hillclimbing testing,sadly the Storck bike wont be there,they were invited-golden opportunity to reveal this 60 Nm torque figure. I have always thought that the Storck bike is really a competitor to my Kudos Arriba bike (Thun torque sensor,Tektro brakes and BPM/CST hub motor).
KudosDave
i am sure you know your ebikes kudoscycles, but making comparisons by riding at shows in halls is not going to give a true reflection of any ebike's performance. it has even been suggested that test bikes can be derestricted (prototype)....and leads to false impression. i think your opening paragraph is invalid in terms of giving advice as its based on riding in a hall on 'demo' bikes...... if storck were to turn up with a modified cosworth version of their bike suitable pimped for test rides......most other bikes would look as though they were standing still.......completely meaningless of course as a guide to suitability for purchase.......
regards
D
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If you put a watt-meter on a hub-motored electric bike, you'll find that power consumption goes up as rpm goes down, such that maximum power consumption is at zero rpm. The same happens to torque, so you get maximum torque at zero rpm; however, maximum power occurs somewhere on the range between half an 3/4 maximum rpm - don't get torque and power mixed up. Torque is the amount of force that will pull you up a hill; power determines how fast you go up the hill. You can have a massively powerful motor that can't get you up a hill because it has insufficient torque.
I agree,that is why we are exhibiting at venues which have hills. I don't like test tracks at shows,which are always flat.
It just seems that Storck get very tetchy when anyone criticises the hill climbing and torque fugures for their hub drive bike but have never put a bike out at hill climbing type events for others to compare-I think this was the root of the argument that caused Eddieo to get banned and at about that time Storck pulled their advertising on this site.
The OP wanted a bike in the Lake District for hillclimbing,surely the Storck Bosch drive bike would be a better choice,if he wants to stay with the Storck marque.
Here is a bit of healthy competitive fun....
There is a race up Bristol high Road on June 23 organised by Atmosphere Bikes.
We race the Storck multitask against the Kudos Ibex-the organisers sell raffle tickets-the losing bike is given to the raffle and the proceeds go to the winners choice of charity.
If you think this a good idea,I will write to Storck Raddar suggesting the challenge.
Your responses most welcome.
KudosDave
I really like the idea of a race but this would also depend on the person riding each bike. Better to have a time trial where the same person rides both so that it could not be put down to the differences between the riders.
Hi Dave, this is one of the two age old problems when describing electric bikes on paper.
Andrew from Oxygen won the hill climb at the EB world championship in Bristol last year and although the bike is good, the race means nothing. Even though Andrew is a fit guy, a decent club road racer on a non powered bike would probably have beaten him. Being nearly 60, fat and unfit, Andrew would no doubt have beaten me on a non powered bike if I had ridden the Oxygen. Introducing the human element does not make sense. The only way I can see to measure the hill climbing capability of an electric bike is to make up a mechanical rig to do the testing. But then who runs the tests?
The second problem of-course is range.
All the best
David
Andrew from Oxygen won the hill climb at the EB world championship in Bristol last year and although the bike is good, the race means nothing. Even though Andrew is a fit guy, a decent club road racer on a non powered bike would probably have beaten him. Being nearly 60, fat and unfit, Andrew would no doubt have beaten me on a non powered bike if I had ridden the Oxygen. Introducing the human element does not make sense. The only way I can see to measure the hill climbing capability of an electric bike is to make up a mechanical rig to do the testing. But then who runs the tests?
The second problem of-course is range.
All the best
David
But as I'm sure you know David, still a problem with torque sensing pedelecs. The rig would have to exert a torque effort, but then how much should that be, since every rider is different.
That's why the only answer is what we always say in here, try before buying, since each potential buyer can only have a chance of determining suitability by that means.
Do you think ? I thought Cav's problem was hills,what about Wiggo?
I will write to Storck-Raddar suggesting the challenge,Ian Hughes seems to be a competitive sort of guy,will report back if they are up for the race-all just a bit of fun.
KudosDave
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