Yet more stuff in the media on battery fires and kits

[WheezyRider]

Are e-bike batteries safe? What’s the difference between a safe battery and a fire risk?

We’ve reported on a number of e-bike battery fires in recent times, many off the back off London Fire Brigade’s Charge Safe campaign which was launched in response to rising numbers of e-bike and e-scooter fires in the capital. While the campaign warns of batteries and chargers that do not meet...

ebiketips.road.cc

Ban on ‘universal’ e-bike chargers and safety standards for conversion kits among recommendations from electrical safety charity

Charity Electrical Safety First (ESF) have recently made public a detailed 72 page report dramatically entitled 'Battery Breakdown - Why are e-scooter and e-bike batteries exploding in people's homes and what can be done about it?' Amongst many other recommendations, some of the most noticeable...

ebiketips.road.cc

Despite that caveat, ESF says, "DIY conversions should be discouraged," adding, "Many conversion kits that are available from less scrupulous dealers are more powerful. They push a DIY-built e-bike beyond the legal safeguards of EAPC rules and leave the user and pedestrians vulnerable to serious injury, and the former liable to prosecution."

 

[portals]

Most of his points are valid however bringing higher powered hub kits in to the equation just muddies the waters, have you ever heard of anything other then the battery catching fire or being root cause?

 

[guerney]

Some of these problems/odds of fire are small I agree (we will say about a million to one per day to illustrate but I dont have an exact figure). But here lies the potential problem I think in that there is a huge growth in the sale of electric scooters and ebikes (which are often grouped together in countries that have introduced legislation and in general conversation/news). So if you have a country with like 1 million ebikes/scooters and there is a million to one chance per day of a fire, then thats a fire every day.

From the artcle linked above, roughly 1 in 9,000 of all escooter and ebike batteries burst into flames. Which I think is impressively low, considering.

Are e-bike batteries safe? What’s the difference between a safe battery and a fire risk?

We’ve reported on a number of e-bike battery fires in recent times, many off the back off London Fire Brigade’s Charge Safe campaign which was launched in response to rising numbers of e-bike and e-scooter fires in the capital. While the campaign warns of batteries and chargers that do not meet...

ebiketips.road.cc

Vague article - I do wish we knew which factors mentioned caused each of those 167 fire brigade attended fires last year, instead of opinions from some ebike shop guy. This report is also useless and devoid of detail :

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media/sgyikuwb/esf_batterybreakdown_report_2023_v7_-final.pdf

From my cursory glance around the web, it seems electric cars are about twice as likely to burst into flames than escooters and ebikes. Admittedly, electric car fires don't usually occur within the home.

 

[Sturmey]

From the artcle linked above, roughly 1 in 9,000 of all escooter and ebike batteries burst into flames. Which I think is impressively low, considering.




Vague article - I do wish we knew which factors mentioned caused each of those 167 fire brigade attended fires last year, instead of opinions from some ebike shop guy. This report is also useless and devoid of detail :

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media/sgyikuwb/esf_batterybreakdown_report_2023_v7_-final.pdf

From my cursory glance around the web, it seems electric cars are about twice as likely to burst into flames than escooters and ebikes. Admittedly, electric car fires don't usually occur within the home.

Petrol fueled bikes were not exactly 100% safe either. I had one with a sticking float in one of the carbs and could leak petrol if the petrol tap was not turned off when on the side stand. I dont think this was uncommon. But generally people do not keep petrol indoors in their house, although I did stay in a flat once with a guy living downstairs that insisted on bringing his small yamaha motorbike inside.

 

[WheezyRider]

Petrol fueled bikes were not exactly 100% safe either. I had one with a sticking float in one of the carbs and could leak petrol if the petrol tap was not turned off when on the side stand. I dont think this was uncommon. But generally people do not keep petrol indoors in their house, although I did stay in a flat once with a guy living downstairs that insisted on bringing his small yamaha motorbike inside.

It would help a lot if councils would provide secure on street cycle parking, then people wouldn't feel they have to bring them indoors. It's funny, councils are expected to provide on street storage spaces for cars and charging points out of tax payers funds, but even if you only want to put a cycle shed in your front garden, the planning permission dept goes crazy.

There was an article on the BBC this morning about loads of Hyundais having to be recalled due to a technical fault that could cause a fire.

 

[FastFreddy2]

30 years ago, I did some house refurbishment work with some off-duty firemen. I asked what was the most common cause of fires in the home, expecting an answer like chip pan fires. Nope, washing machines. More recently I suppose tumble dryers. Calls for banning washing machines or tumble dryers? Of course not, but e-scooters and e-bikes (pedelec) owners are a minority group, so it can be sensationalised.

Stupid people do stupid things all the time, like me. In my younger days, I must have electrocuted myself at least three times, once while I was still attending school. (Which really could have killed me.) But usually, these incidents are so mundane, they never get reported.

One of the most dangerous sports in the UK is fishing. You'd think because people fell into deep water. No, because fishermen use carbon rods which make fantastic conductors when they accidently touch overhead power cables. Ladders and stairs, other big killers in the home. Banned?

The newspapers like to sensationalise 'the demon' of the day. Mobile phone chargers, e-cigarettes, e-scooters, e-bikes, and their inevitable popularity increases care of the government's insistence, e-vehicles. Tesla being the main villain. Storm in a tea-cup. Best ignored.

 

[WheezyRider]

30 years ago, I did some house refurbishment work with some off-duty firemen. I asked what was the most common cause of fires in the home, expecting an answer like chip pan fires. Nope, washing machines. More recently I suppose tumble dryers. Calls for banning washing machines or tumble dryers? Of course not, but e-scooters and e-bikes (pedelec) owners are a minority group, so it can be sensationalised.

Stupid people do stupid things all the time, like me. In my younger days, I must have electrocuted myself at least three times, once while I was still attending school. (Which really could have killed me.) But usually, these incidents are so mundane, they never get reported.

One of the most dangerous sports in the UK is fishing. You'd think because people fell into deep water. No, because fishermen use carbon rods which make fantastic conductors when they accidently touch overhead power cables. Ladders and stairs, other big killers in the home. Banned?

The newspapers like to sensationalise 'the demon' of the day. Mobile phone chargers, e-cigarettes, e-scooters, e-bikes, and their inevitable popularity increases care of the government's insistence, e-vehicles. Tesla being the main villain. Storm in a tea-cup. Best ignored.

I agree with you, but can we ignore it? If there is no one putting the case for kits etc, is this something the gov will jump on when in need of being seen to be doing something when they need to distract the public from some scandal of the day?

Here is the full document:

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media/sgyikuwb/esf_batterybreakdown_report_2023_v7_-final.pdf

They make the usual error of saying 250W max... *rolleyes*

 

[StuartsProjects]

Despite that caveat, ESF says, "DIY conversions should be discouraged," adding, "Many conversion kits that are available from less scrupulous dealers are more powerful. They push a DIY-built e-bike beyond the legal safeguards of EAPC rules and leave the user and pedestrians vulnerable to serious injury, and the former liable to prosecution."

Perhaps the answer here is not that DIY conversions in themselves should be 'discouraged' but that those that result in illegal eBikes should be discouraged and persecuted.

Unfortunatly there are public Tutorials, YouTube videos and Internet forums, including this one, where you can openly get support and advice for road cycle DIY Conversions that would not be legal on UK roads.

 

[chris_n]

Perhaps the answer here is not that DIY conversions in themselves should be 'discouraged' but that those that result in illegal eBikes should be discouraged and persecuted.

Unfortunatly there are public Tutorials, YouTube videos and Internet forums, including this one, where you can openly get support and advice for road cycle DIY Conversions that would not be legal on UK roads.

There are more than enough pictures and descriptions of legal conversions / ebikes on here that terrify me.

 

[guerney]

There are more than enough pictures and descriptions of legal conversions / ebikes on here that terrify me.

Name 23.

 

[portals]

Perhaps the answer here is not that DIY conversions in themselves should be 'discouraged' but that those that result in illegal eBikes should be discouraged and persecuted.

How may DIY ebike kits bought form internet (regardless of power or whether or not it is 250W or 3000W), catch fire?

Answer: None, because metal cannot catch fire without a source. So it is at best disingenuous to discourage to kits, they should 100% be focusing on education around batteries not buying cheap crap Chinese cells, cheap unmatched chargers and leaving unattended etc. etc.

Unfortunately there are public Tutorials, YouTube videos and Internet forums, including this one, where you can openly get support and advice for road cycle DIY Conversions that would not be legal on UK roads.

?? These tutorial videos (of which I watched a load of before committing to buying a kit), educate people, I don't like the reverse snobbery that just because someone might be rocking a more powerful motor than 250W you think YT videos showing this should be censored and banned? Nuts...

 

[soundwave]

the most expensive part of any ebike is the batts they see a bargain from china to run there 30-50a motors and in 3 months wonder why it is turning off from voltage sag cos the cells are cheap junk.

id rather pay more for grade a cells from a uk batt builder and will come with warranty if anything happens.

would i keep a scooter from currys or halfords for 300 quid and charge it over night no chance.

last year i had to point out to a giant dealer that batches of chargers were going faulty and over charging the batts and bricking them.

and then we got the ppl thrown 80 cells in the bin what could possibly go wrong.



when there electric there wont be anything left, and a massive hole in the road

 

[WheezyRider]

@flecc Have you had a chance to look through the document?

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media/sgyikuwb/esf_batterybreakdown_report_2023_v7_-final.pdf

There are some things that worry me a bit, in particular with respect to kits and their regulation etc. They say the regulations on e-bikes is very confused and needs standardising, Also, a 2020 EAPC standard is mentioned several times:

"The Office for Product Safety and Standards (OPSS) should adopt the technical
specification ISO/TS 4210-10: 2020. Cycles"

A lot of the stuff they spout about scooter design is ridiculous and shows that they do not know what they are for, and have never been on one.

What chance is there than any of their recommendations will be listened to by law makers? It worries me they are using the excuse of a few battery fires to bring in a whole load of unnecessary new regs.

 

[StuartsProjects]

What chance is there than any of their recommendations will be listened to by law makers? It worries me they are using the excuse of a few battery fires to bring in a whole load of unnecessary new regs.

Well, there have been a number of so called battery fires that could have had more serious consequnces, in particular the ones in blocks of flats.

If there were a serious event, multiple fatalties perhaps, then 'something must be done' mode could kick in and the mentioned report could well be perused by Government for guidance.

So maybe were not so far away from more regulation, particularly in relation to DIY conversions.

 

[FastFreddy2]

So maybe were not so far away from more regulation, particularly in relation to DIY conversions.

There is no point in introducing laws and standards, that can't be policed. How could anyone stop sub-standard imports (assuming they are) or people using fast chargers on equipment that isn't suitable for fast charging? The chemistry involved, is inherently volatile.

The aircraft industry is about as regulated as it's possible to get. Every single item used in the build of an aircraft has it's whole 'creation' life records stored for subsequent investigation. If necessary, the history of every bracket and screw on an aircraft can be traced back to when and where it was smelted. But it didn't stop this.... https://simpleflying.com/boeing-787-battery-fires-cause/

While I'm not suggesting lithium battery fires are acceptable, until the manufacturing process matures and system designers inbuild suitable safety technology into the batteries, lithium battery fires are inevitable. Not because the technology is unsafe, but because people using them get a bit cavalier with their use. Charging a high energy storage container overnight (so no visible supervision) and charging the container in front of the only exit from the dwelling in a tall building, does not seem very prudent of the owner. The government can regulate, and legislate, but it won't stop people doing stupid things.

Car drivers have to pass a drivers (safety) test before being allowed to drive unsupervised. The vehicle has to be of a suitable (roadworthy) standard to be driven on the roads, and gets a yearly check when it's old enough, to ensure this is the case. The owner/driver of the vehicle has a legal requirement for it to be taxed and insured, for it to be used on public roads. This helps stop the general public driving around in unsafe vehicles, without the right skills to drive those vehicles. Insurance helps cover the costs of accidents, so drivers can (hopefully) carry on driving if their vehicle is damaged. Do all these regulations and laws stop unlicensed people, those banned from driving, driving vehicles that are not taxed and insured? Does it stop unsafe vehicles being used on the road? Does having trained/tested drivers, piloting essentially mechanically safe/tested vehicles prevent them from having accidents?

Media 'heat' (sensationalism) might well be drawing attention to an issue, but I can't see how the government can legislate in such a way it makes high energy storage (lithium batteries) "user" proof.

 

[WheezyRider]

There is no point in introducing laws and standards, that can't be policed. How could anyone stop sub-standard imports (assuming they are) or people using fast chargers on equipment that isn't suitable for fast charging? The chemistry involved, is inherently volatile.

The aircraft industry is about as regulated as it's possible to get. Every single item used in the build of an aircraft has it's whole 'creation' life records stored for subsequent investigation. If necessary, the history of every bracket and screw on an aircraft can be traced back to when and where it was smelted. But it didn't stop this.... https://simpleflying.com/boeing-787-battery-fires-cause/

While I'm not suggesting lithium battery fires are acceptable, until the manufacturing process matures and system designers inbuild suitable safety technology into the batteries, lithium battery fires are inevitable. Not because the technology is unsafe, but because people using them get a bit cavalier with their use. Charging a high energy storage container overnight (so no visible supervision) and charging the container in front of the only exit from the dwelling in a tall building, does not seem very prudent of the owner. The government can regulate, and legislate, but it won't stop people doing stupid things.

Car drivers have to pass a drivers (safety) test before being allowed to drive unsupervised. The vehicle has to be of a suitable (roadworthy) standard to be driven on the roads, and gets a yearly check when it's old enough, to ensure this is the case. The owner/driver of the vehicle has a legal requirement for it to be taxed and insured, for it to be used on public roads. This helps stop the general public driving around in unsafe vehicles, without the right skills to drive those vehicles. Insurance helps cover the costs of accidents, so drivers can (hopefully) carry on driving if their vehicle is damaged. Do all these regulations and laws stop unlicensed people, those banned from driving, driving vehicles that are not taxed and insured? Does it stop unsafe vehicles being used on the road? Does having trained/tested drivers, piloting essentially mechanically safe/tested vehicles from having accidents?

Media 'heat' (sensationalism) might well be drawing attention to an issue, but I can't see how the government can legislate in such a way it makes high energy storage (lithium batteries) "user" proof.

Very true, but politicians need to be seen to be doing something when there is a perceived problem...

 

[FastFreddy2]

Very true, but politicians need to be seen to be doing something when there is a perceived problem...

What, like with illegal immigration?

We are on our 3rd/4th/5th vocal Home Secretary, and 5th/6th government that still hasn't managed to stop one single person being here illegally. Not long ago I read a headline where a criminal who been deported twice, was back in the country for a third time.

"A PROLIFIC bag thief who has been deported twice is being hunted by police in London after slipping back into the country. Hakim Benmakhlouf, who has a string of convictions for stealing from tourists at five-star hotels and airports, was first deported in July 2007.

He had been serving a three-and-a-half-year prison sentence for theft but was given £3,000 by the Government to be released early and fly home to his native Algeria.

A day later the 27-year-old returned and was back snatching bags until he was re-arrested in April last year.

He was jailed for three years but was released early last month, after serving a third of his sentence, to be deported again. He got back into the country days later.

Police had no idea Benmakhlouf had been freed early until he was spotted by officers in London two weeks ago. A search for him is now under way, focusing on the St John's Wood area.

A Home Office source said: "This is a major, major embarrassment. This man has made a mockery of our border controls and the criminal justice system.""

This is an old article, from the Evening Standard. I haven't as yet found the more recent example I had read about, but "mockery" is right.

Slightly more topical, seen in the Yorkshire Times. Even better, deported 6 times ....

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/illegal-immigrant-who-has-been-deported-from-uk-six-times-found-living-in-yorkshire-3973612

 

[WheezyRider]

What, like with illegal immigration?

We are on our 3rd/4th/5th vocal Home Secretary, and 5th/6th government that still hasn't managed to stop one single person being here illegally. Not long ago I read a headline where a criminal who been deported twice, was back in the country for a third time.

"A PROLIFIC bag thief who has been deported twice is being hunted by police in London after slipping back into the country. Hakim Benmakhlouf, who has a string of convictions for stealing from tourists at five-star hotels and airports, was first deported in July 2007.

He had been serving a three-and-a-half-year prison sentence for theft but was given £3,000 by the Government to be released early and fly home to his native Algeria.

A day later the 27-year-old returned and was back snatching bags until he was re-arrested in April last year.

He was jailed for three years but was released early last month, after serving a third of his sentence, to be deported again. He got back into the country days later.

Police had no idea Benmakhlouf had been freed early until he was spotted by officers in London two weeks ago. A search for him is now under way, focusing on the St John's Wood area.

A Home Office source said: "This is a major, major embarrassment. This man has made a mockery of our border controls and the criminal justice system.""

This is an old article, from the Evening Standard. I haven't as yet found the more recent example I had read about, but "mockery" is right.

Slightly more topical, seen in the Yorkshire Times. Even better, deported 6 times ....

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/illegal-immigrant-who-has-been-deported-from-uk-six-times-found-living-in-yorkshire-3973612

Absolutely my point. They have achieved f-all. But they have introduced new laws to make it look like they have done something. So they bring in legislation about coming over in small boats. Breaking the law is not going to bother someone who is desperate, whether that's fleeing war, starvation or just because they have zero prospects in their own country. But it makes life more difficult for those who want to follow the law.

I'm just hoping migrants won't be found getting into the country on e-bike powered boats...the Daily Fail will have a field day with that one.

 

[guerney]

Many of those cheap Chinese celled batteries bought during the ebike boom of 2020, will be going BOOM! about now?

 

[StuartsProjects]

Media 'heat' (sensationalism) might well be drawing attention to an issue, but I can't see how the government can legislate in such a way it makes high energy storage (lithium batteries) "user" proof.

Whether we as individuals think extra regulation is good, bad or just a waste of time is of little consequence, we are not the politicians and legislators who make these decisions.

The safety report does mention the issues around DIY conversions and there has been publicity on conversions used by the delivery ninjas.

If there is a future serious incident and its caused by a DIY conversion then it seems inevitable that the politicians and legislators will respond and I doubt it will be just a publicity campaign.

Also bear in mind that recently Mr Sunak has already started touting Motorists for votes for the next election with 'investigations' into traffic free areas and the 20mph limits. One thing that would probably get support from Motorists is new 'restrictions' on eBikes.