Yet Another London Cyclist Death Today

[flecc]

"The evidence is that almost all of these accidents was totally under the control of the cyclist and could easily have been avoided by them." Where is this evidence? Did not the latest stats on cycle accident reveal 68% of KSI collisions were the fault of the driver?

The evidence I mention is very clear and has been very widely and repeatedly reported. A very high proportion of these deaths over several years resulted from the cyclist being in the blind left spot of a truck at a junction.

The two things you state are disparate so not relevant. By avoiding a position of danger a cyclist can avoid an accident that would have been the fault of someone else if it had occurred. I've been successfully doing it all my cycling life.

Therefore those accidents were under the control of the cyclists and could have been avoided! The message is clear:

Avoid riding alongside the nearside of trucks at junctions.

 

[Hackney Andy]

The evidence I mention is very clear and has been very widely and repeatedly reported. A very high proportion of these deaths over several years resulted from the cyclist being in the blind left spot of a truck at a junction.

The two things you state are disparate so not relevant. By avoiding a position of danger a cyclist can avoid an accident that would have been the fault of someone else if it had occurred. I've been successfully doing it all my cycling life.

Therefore those accidents were under the control of the cyclists and could have been avoided! The message is clear:

Avoid riding alongside the nearside of trucks at junctions.

In both of the cases I mentioned, and in many other cases, The cyclists arrived at the junction first - that means the cyclists did not ride along the nearside of the trucks. In both cases they were left hooked. In the first case the driver was on his mobile, in the second he crossed into the advanced stop line long after the light had gone red 'to get a better view of the junction' according to his lawyer. The driver admitted he entered the ASL after it had turned red and hadn't noticed the cyclist therein, and that he had substandard mirrors. 'Death by misadventure' were the recorded verdicts. Would Flecc's advice had saved them? I think not. It is quite wrong to assume that when this happens it was the cyclist putting themselves in harm's way....as most media (and some cyclists) do.

 

[danfoto]

In both of the cases I mentioned, and in many other cases, The cyclists arrived at the junction first - that means the cyclists did not ride along the nearside of the trucks. In both cases they were left hooked ... It is quite wrong to assume that when this happens it was the cyclist putting themselves in harm's way

Let us say that you are stationary at the lights, having got there first, and a wagon pulls up alongside you on your right.

The lights change.

If you keep yourself out of harm's way by keeping that wagon ahead of you until it's clear of the junction, how can it squash you if it turns left?

 

[Blew it]

And during the time the truck gets moving, either straight ahead or turning left, other vehicles following are now alongside the cyclist. Probably get hollered at for obstructing the lane.

 

[Clockwise]

And during the time the truck gets moving, either straight ahead or turning left, other vehicles following are now alongside the cyclist. Probably get hollered at for obstructing the lane.

You can personally shout at me until you are blue in the face for me standing still at a green light so long as you don't hit me with a truck or a bus.

Went on a 20 mile bike ride today out from streatham to croydon almost and along to hayes. Found the roads a little more narrow in places so had to stop behind the odd parked car to let traffic pass, yes I could argue that it's my right to take up the single lane but pulling out infront of a land rover to gain a couple of seconds just isn't how I get my kicks.

 

[Blew it]

Strict Liability

As I have said before, the principle of "Strict Liability" should be adopted by Britain. For a balanced argument on the subject, follow the link below.

STRICT LIABILITY

 

[Blew it]

Who, me?

They can personally shout at me until they are blue in the face for me standing still at a green light so long as they don't hit me with a truck or a bus.

I am a cyclist, I do not "shout" at other road users.

 

[flecc]

In both of the cases I mentioned, and in many other cases, The cyclists arrived at the junction first - that means the cyclists did not ride along the nearside of the trucks. In both cases they were left hooked. In the first case the driver was on his mobile, in the second he crossed into the advanced stop line long after the light had gone red 'to get a better view of the junction' according to his lawyer. The driver admitted he entered the ASL after it had turned red and hadn't noticed the cyclist therein, and that he had substandard mirrors. 'Death by misadventure' were the recorded verdicts. Would Flecc's advice had saved them? I think not. It is quite wrong to assume that when this happens it was the cyclist putting themselves in harm's way....as most media (and some cyclists) do.

Of course my advice would save them, after all, I'm still here at 77 years old!

As others have remarked, if finding oneself in that position, don't move forward, just let the truck go first. Trucks cannot drive sideways, you can only get crushed if you ride off alongside them.

Once again Andy, this is not about blame, it's about preventing unnecessary deaths.

Who is right or wrong doesn't matter where safety is concerned. There's an old rhyme about the collision regulations at sea which illustrates this in it's last two lines:

"He was right, dead right, as he sailed along
but he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong".

 

[Hackney Andy]

Of course my advice would save them, after all, I'm still here at 77 years old!

As others have remarked, if finding oneself in that position, don't move forward, just let the truck go first. Trucks cannot drive sideways, you can only get crushed if you ride off alongside them.

Once again Andy, this is not about blame, it's about preventing unnecessary deaths.

Who is right or wrong doesn't matter where safety is concerned. There's an old rhyme about the collision regulations at sea which illustrates this in it's last two lines:

"He was right, dead right, as he sailed along
but he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong".

Now who's presenting disparate facts 'I'm 77 so I must be right.'

Articulated vehicles do move sideways. In both cases the victims were dragged round the corner from the stop line by the lorries until in one case the cyclist was crushed against the railings - 18inches from the curb on the pavement side and in the other case by the rotation of the trailer. Do you not think ignoring the advance stop line, using a mobile and having defective mirrors were factors? What happened to them could happen to any of us. They didn't choose to have irresponsible lorry drivers pull up next to them. They didn't move; they had no chance. I find your attitude arrogant and shocking.

 

[flecc]

Now who's presenting disparate facts 'I'm 77 so I must be right.'

Articulated vehicles do move sideways. In both cases the victims were dragged round the corner from the stop line by the lorries until in one case the cyclist was crushed against the railings - 18inches from the curb on the pavement side and in the other case by the rotation of the trailer. Do you not think ignoring the advance stop line, using a mobile and having defective mirrors were factors? What happened to them could happen to any of us. They didn't choose to have irresponsible lorry drivers pull up next to them. They didn't move; they had no chance. I find your attitude arrogant and shocking.

Andy, you continue to stubbornly ignore the stated purpose of this thread, to save lives, just in order to continue your rant against lorry drivers. I don't disagree with everything you've said about those drivers, but this thread is not about that. If you want a discussion about irresponsible lorry drivers, please start a thread about that subject.

Meanwhile, if trying to save lives is arrogant and shocking, then that's what I'll continue to be.

Perhaps the strangest aspect of your stance is that you've clearly been acting in accordance with my advice in avoiding positions of danger during your years of London commuting.
.

 

[vectra]

Of course my advice would save them, after all, I'm still here at 77 years old!

As others have remarked, if finding oneself in that position, don't move forward, just let the truck go first. Trucks cannot drive sideways, you can only get crushed if you ride off alongside them.

Once again Andy, this is not about blame, it's about preventing unnecessary deaths.

Who is right or wrong doesn't matter where safety is concerned. There's an old rhyme about the collision regulations at sea which illustrates this in it's last two lines:

"He was right, dead right, as he sailed along
but he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong".

Or. "There are old pilots and there are bold pilots however there are no old, bold pilots"

Change a few words and you have the idea.

 

[Scimitar]

As I have said before, the principle of "Strict Liability" should be adopted by Britain. For a balanced argument on the subject, follow the link below.

STRICT LIABILITY

Aha; so, accordion to that, if I mow a cyclist down tomorrow, or get mowed down in turn, it would really make not a jot of difference.

I am a cyclist, I do not "shout" at other road users.

Quite; one merely raises ones voice in a gentlemanly manner.

 

[Hackney Andy]

Flecc, I'm not ranting about lorry drivers, I'm ranting against the commonly held opinion that accidents involving lorries and cyclists are invariably the cyclist's fault. You know none of the details of the recent tragedies, yet rant on about them as if they're without doubt another example of 'your advice' not being heeded.

 

[flecc]

Flecc, I'm not ranting about lorry drivers, I'm ranting against the commonly held opinion that accidents involving lorries and cyclists are invariably the cyclist's fault. You know none of the details of the recent tragedies, yet rant on about them as if they're without doubt another example of 'your advice' not being heeded.

That's certainly not my opinion Andy, and I haven't said it is in this thread or elsewhere. Indeed I posted strongly about poor truck drivers in this forum not long ago (and was criticised for it!). And I certainly do know of the details of the accidents you've referred to, it's why I've posted a new thread in here at the time of almost every death to draw attention to it. I've watched CCTV video of one of the accidents and watched each of the programs on this subject on the BBC and ITV London region and their regular news reports on them, because I have this special interest in the subject.

But it is a widely acknowledged fact that many of the accidents were avoidable if cyclists tried to avoid the nearside of trucks at junctions. That's not to say it was the cyclists fault, only that they could have avoided the accidents. It is a fact that the majority of the victims have been female, despite the majority of cyclists being male, which alone proves that the existence of the accidents was affected by the cyclists.

Driving behaviour is another issue which needs to be addressed, and I support you in that. There's also an urgent issue about the commercial management of trucks on our roads. But these aren't what this thread is about, it's about saving lives, not blame. Post a different thread on those if you wish and you'll get plenty of support, including from me.
.

 

[danfoto]

...it is a widely acknowledged fact that many of the accidents were avoidable if cyclists tried to avoid the nearside of trucks at junctions. That's not to say it was the cyclists fault, only that they could have avoided the accidents. It is a fact that the majority of the victims have been female, despite the majority of cyclists being male, which alone proves that the existence of the accidents was affected by the cyclists.

Anybody going to quibble about the omission of "almost certainly" before "could" in the second sentence?

Or do we just accept that very rarely is this particular nail hit so well on the head on a cycling forum?

 

[Biker44]

Let us say that you are stationary at the lights, having got there first, and a wagon pulls up alongside you on your right. The lights change. If you keep yourself out of harm's way by keeping that wagon ahead of you until it's clear of the junction, how can it squash you if it turns left?

As others have said, this is about the most dangerous situation you can get yourself into on a cycle (a woman was killed not far from me 3 or 4 years ago).

If an artic (or a cement mixer truck) does this to you, your life depends on getting wholly out of his way - jumping the lights if necessary.

If you're confident of out-accelerating him in all cases, then maybe that's the solution - otherwise, fill your lane so nobody can do it to you.

In fact, I would suggest taking up a full car-space in almost all circumstances! See this page of this valuable little booklet, suggested by another in here (thankyou, whoever!) - http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/lhd/chapter2a.htm

 

[Biker44]

I wouldn't trust to motorists seeing any bike indicators, they are too central and often indistinct in bright daylight. They often don't even see us!

Brightly coloured gloves like those Clockwise mentions seem a good idea to accentuate hand signals. An LED arrow on the back of a glove for night use, switched on by a gravity switch when the arm was held straight out should do the trick for that after dark dangerous situation.

I have a Cyclamatic Foldaway electric cycle and its brilliant.

I have a Cyclamatic bicycle indicator thing (b-day present!) and its a menace. Indicators lead you to do all the wrong things - and that's if you remember to switch them on before you leave the house and if you remember to switch them off when you get home!

The only use it might have is on the front of the cycle at certain very busy junctions as there are none near me. (Note, turn the switch upside down to get the flashing right!) At least when they're on the front you can reach down and switch them on - but the beeping becomes even more distracting!

On gloves - I have a woolly pair that are not fully reflective, just a reflective arrow on the back - a good idea, they give me confidence.

 

[Biker44]

Something I found on the interweb Cycling Street Smarts, left-hand drive version, Table of Contents Maybe experienced riders could indicate whether the advice is valid or needs updating

I think its excellent!

 

[Biker44]

1) Have a mirror and use to to get the manouvre timing right.

Can anyone recommend a good mirror? They're essential on motorcycles but I've never got on with them on bicycles.

They need to be strong but not sharp edged (look at motorcycle mirrors!)

And must have convex glass (some cycle ones are flat and utterly useless!)

 

[danfoto]

Can anyone recommend a good mirror?

Yes. This one.

There's also the Zéfal one, but it's not easy to find the right-hand fitting version. In any case, being French, it's not as well made as the Mirrycle.