Yamaha or Bosch mid drive

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Looking at electric mtb and decided I want mid drive ( unless somebody can convince otherwise)
I,m just right side of 60,fairly fit and 100kg on a good ( light) day..
Normal route is 14 miles on rough to good tracks ( no singles ) in Derbyshire with 3 moderate climbs (total 500 metre height rise?)
Which electric bikes recommended to extend my distance covered/time out. (had enough "work" by 90 mins pedalling or so)
Looking at mtb with Bosch mud drive (250 w,I go on roads a bit) and a 400 w/h battery..
Cheers.

 

[EddiePJ]

Up until seeing this thread, I quite liked the look of the Yamaha motor with it's larger front chain wheel. http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/sduro-haibike-22-newton-torque-setting-bolts-ouch.23468/ On the assumption that all of the Yamaha motors are bolted directly into the frame of a bike, I wouldn't now touch any bike that has a Yamaha motor fitted.

The reason being that if using the bike off road, you cannot carry out satisfactory maintenance without also periodically removing the motor for cleaning purposes. However careful that you are, sooner or later those threads are going to give up* and could spell the end of the frame..

What budget are you looking at spending, and which is more preferable, hard tail or full suspension?







* That is just my opinion, but I've worked on enough GP race bikes to know that there is a finite life of threads when screwing a steel bolt into an alloy thread.


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[flecc]

* That is just my opinion, but I've worked on enough GP race bikes to know that there is a finite life of threads when screwing a steel bolt into an alloy thread.

I agree, but wonder if there's room for nuts on the other side, used with longer bolts in the event of a thread giving way?
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[trex]

I don't like the design of the motor craddle much but the 3 M6 go into steel inserts.

fastforward to time index 6:12

 

[flecc]

Good, on the chainwheel basis I like the Yamaha too.
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[anotherkiwi]

I saw some very nice looking Giants yesterday with Yamaha motors. But they were trekking bikes. I think the Yamaha motor looks more "solid" somehow compared to the Bosch. Maybe it is the chainwheel?

 

[flecc]

I think the Yamaha motor looks more "solid" somehow compared to the Bosch. Maybe it is the chainwheel?

I see them like that too. My objection to the Bosch small chainwheel is twofold. Firstly higher wear rate, and secondly that it's irrational.

They've gained greater efficiency for the motor since there's less reduction gearing, but that's been gained at the cost of the rider effort going through an epicyclic gear with the consequent loss of efficiency.

That's the irrationality, taking from the rider's much lower output for a gain on the motor's much higher output.
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[trex]

but with less fear of the 'black grease factor' to suit the younger generation.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

I see them like that too. My objection to the Bosch small chainwheel is twofold. Firstly higher wear rate, and secondly that it's irrational.

They've gained greater efficiency for the motor since there's less reduction gearing, but that's been gained at the cost of the rider effort going through an epicyclic gear with the consequent loss of efficiency.

That's the irrationality, taking from the rider's much lower output for a gain on the motor's much higher output.
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I,d more or less settled on Bosch drive system in a hard tail,500 w/h and mid spec cycle parts. ( £1500 to £2k I,d guess for budget)
However....Tried yam and Bosch versions of Haibike and actually preffered Yam..had quicker initial power. ( was explained that yam powers motor immediately it senses pedal movement. Bosch needs 3/4 of a revolution( of crank) before getting power.
Sort of thought yam less complicated ( ie crank and ring rotate same speed, but with Bosch ring rotates 2.5 times crank speed, but not sure this effects anything , other than smaller chain ring) Reckon both systems will be reliable? but do agree with earlier post re disimilar metals problem. But nobody builds better outboards than Yamaha and must be instances where same applies ???

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Just back from local dealers and I,m hiring yam version next week with agreement to knock hire price off purchase price if I buy it. Could do same with Bosch but Yam was brilliant in car park. Bosch only slightly less so. Both fantastic pieces of kit..reckon either would be fine.( 2 year warranty powertrain/ battery. 5 on cycle parts)

 

[Emo Rider]

I have used both and prefer the Yamaha. Bosch bikes are usually £300 to £400 more than the Yamaha powered unit with similar spec. In the Sduro RC line, the 20 speed gear train (especially the Trekking model) is very desirable if you want to just ride without power.

It's great that you test rode both. All the words here can't match a ride.

Safe journeys all, Cheers

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

I see them like that too. My objection to the Bosch small chainwheel is twofold. Firstly higher wear rate, and secondly that it's irrational.

They've gained greater efficiency for the motor since there's less reduction gearing, but that's been gained at the cost of the rider effort going through an epicyclic gear with the consequent loss of efficiency.

That's the irrationality, taking from the rider's much lower output for a gain on the motor's much higher output.
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That's a very good point. Suppose to check out total change in efficiency ( rider and bike) you,d have to study lots of different rider weights and fitness levels. Taking my limited efficiency might be better going for efficient bike ??? Errr or would I...???

 

[flecc]

That's a very good point. Suppose to check out total change in efficiency ( rider and bike) you,d have to study lots of different rider weights and fitness levels. Taking my limited efficiency might be better going for efficient bike ??? Errr or would I...???

In terms of the final power out to the road, having that epicyclic doesn't affect the Bosch to any material degree of course, so neither system has an intrinsic efficiency gain on the other in consequence. I just object on principle to having my input reduced to benefit the motor output.

With that personal principle removed, the choice comes down to how you view the effect of chain and sprocket wear with a smaller front sprocket.
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[EddiePJ]

I don't like the design of the motor craddle much but the 3 M6 go into steel inserts.

fastforward to time index 6:12

On the thread that I linked to, Mossie has said that the thread goes straight into the alloy of the frame. I couldn't see it clear enough on the YT clip, and it could just be unpainted alloy.

Other than Mossie there must be someone on here that actually takes their motor out from time to time to clean things properly, who could confirm things.

I'd still not touch one of there isn't an insert.

However....Tried yam and Bosch versions of Haibike and actually preferred Yam..had quicker initial power. ( was explained that yam powers motor immediately it senses pedal movement. Bosch needs 3/4 of a revolution( of crank) before getting power.

Faster initial take up of power could well work against you in a wet and muddy off road situation. The slower take up, could allow for better traction without spin.
Nyon for example (which I hate) has the option to programme the bike to reduce initial take off speed to a creep, in order to act as a kind of traction control.
Trying to pull away on a wet greasy steep incline with the bikes motor putting the power down too soon and sharply, can at times be quite frustrating.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

On the thread that I linked to, Mossie has said that the thread goes straight into the alloy of the frame. I couldn't see it clear enough on the YT clip, and it could just be unpainted alloy.

Other than Mossie there must be someone on here that actually takes their motor out from time to time to clean things properly, who could confirm things.

I'd still not touch one of there isn't an insert.



Faster initial take up of power could well work against you in a wet and muddy off road situation. The slower take up, could allow for better traction without spin.
Nyon for example (which I hate) has the option to programme the bike to reduce initial take off speed to a creep, in order to act as a kind of traction control.
Trying to pull away on a wet greasy steep incline with the bikes motor putting the power down too soon and sharply, can at times be quite frustrating.

Fair point but 90% of my riding is hard trails so don't think it will be an issue. I,d have thought you could start in eco mode ( think it gives 50%) then move up.Besides 100 k of lardass on backwheel should help cure traction.
Ordered Haibike S Enduro SL !!! Can have it on 14 day approval..

 

[DAJ]

Congrats on the new bike, I have just ordered a pair of Cubes with the Bosch motors. Really looking forward to receiving them but I have to wait till the end of April for delivery.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Congrats on the new bike, I have just ordered a pair of Cubes with the Bosch motors. Really looking forward to receiving them but I have to wait till the end of April for delivery.

Cheers. Got a trip to France planned soon. Trying to get bike sorted to take with me...proving a bit difficult. Sizes in stock etc..
Good luck with cubes.

 

[paul20v]

However....Tried yam and Bosch versions of Haibike and actually preffered Yam..had quicker initial power. ( was explained that yam powers motor immediately it senses pedal movement. Bosch needs 3/4 of a revolution( of crank) before getting power.

Bosch have altered this with the new Performance CX
The power comes in instantly
Im the other way i tried both and the bosch just seemed better allround quality dare i say more german i also run all my bikes with a single speed front so the bosch drive made more sence too me allthou i do understand it will wear the chain a little quicker
Both overall were great thou and wouldnt have been sorry with either

 

[Artstu]

Bosch needs 3/4 of a revolution( of crank) before getting power.

Seems hard to believe that is the case. You could say that about some cheap Chinese bikes, but surely not a Bosch bike.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Seems hard to believe that is the case. You could say that about some cheap Chinese bikes, but surely not a Bosch bike.

No apparently its designed to do it that way, not sure why. Somebody will tell us, somebody in an earlier post mentioned about avoiding traction problems but I cant see that myself but ??