XF08 in narrow dropouts - advice needed

[Dadam]

I've been fitting my Woosh XF08 kit and pleased so far with the quality of the parts and the service from Woosh. I soon realised I needed the split ring magnet disc not the one for the pedal spindle, and they sent one out right away. My current issue is the dropouts on my bike are a little on the narrow side. Initially, as it seemed to allow the wheel to fit best I put the torque washers and normal washers outside the dropouts. The problem was the brake disc rubbed on the caliper mount and even on the chainstay so this wasn't right. Second go I put one of the small washers inside the dropout on the brake side and this kind of worked but even with the caliper as far out as the adjustment will allow, the disc still rubs on the outside pad.

I clearly need to move it out further, another 1mm or so should do it. For example by putting the torque washer inside and the other washer outside. However I should also do the same on the drive side too, or else the wheel will be off centre. It was already the devil's job to get the wheel in the dropouts so this will make it even harder. Should I consider bending the rear forks out slightly or removing some material from the dropouts?

 

[Dadam]

Or possibly just push out a bit more on non drive side only, and address any off centredness via dishing? The rim needs a bit of truing anyway.

 

[Nealh]

Yes put the the anti rotation washer on the inside (though in this case the washer is having no AR affect) and dish the wheel to center it , if need to any way .

Really needed the drop out deepening .

 

[Woosh]

As NealH said, the anti-torque washers need to be on the inside and the thin washer on the outside for the disc brakes to fit nicely.
The rear subframe is quite springy, turn the bike upside down and wiggle the wheel a bit to get one side in then with one hand, pull the chainstay out a bit and with the other hand, push the wheel in.
I can take some pictures for you tomorrow.

Did you get I touch with Andy at Woosh about this? If not, please email support@wooshbikes.co.uk

 

[Waspy]

I also have a Woosh XF08c kit. I Also have an IS mount brake caliper.

You did remove the black plastic spacer under the disk mount, right? The picture looks like you did.

I have the anti-rotation washers on the outside and the plain washers on the inside. The plain washers supplied with the kit are 4mm thick, I purchased a couple of 3mm plain washers from eBay.

I had to pull the chainstays apart slightly to get the wheel in.

To help me with the procedure I removed the chain and the brake caliper, just to make it easier to get the wheel on and off while I figured it all out, but there is no real need to do that.

Like everyone else has said, you need to file those dropouts.

Does your bike frame have V brake mounts?

 

[saneagle]

You always start the motor installation by getting the spacing on the disc side first to get the disc in the centre of the caliper. The other side doesn't matter so much as long as you can get the motor in. next, you look at how central the wheel is. if it's off centre, you either need to add more spacers on one side, which will increase the distance between the drop-outs, or you dish the wheel by adjusting the spokes.

Only 20" wheeled bikes present problems because the rear triangle tends to be relatively stiff. For any other bike, just give a big heave-ho to the rear triangle by lying the frame on the ground on its side, then stand on the lower dropout while you pull up the other one to widen it a bit unless you're a weakling. In that case you can widen it by jacking it apart with a bit of threaded bar and two nuts or a couple of planks to lever it apart. Don't listen to the scaremongers, who have never done it. It does absolutely no harm to a frame to widen the rear triangle a bit.

 

[Dadam]

Thanks all.
@Woosh I haven’t emailed Andy as it’s not a problem with the kit per se but I will tomorrow.

@Waspy Yes I removed the spacer. V brake mounts: the bike came with hydro discs, it never occurred to me to check, but it’s academic as I’m not minded to downgrade the brakes!

@saneagle Cheers I was pretty sure the frame could bend to accommodate but didn’t want to damage it. I also was thinking I may want to put it back to standard at some point in future so didn’t want to do anything irreversible, though that’s a smaller consideration. I could do it by just pulling as you describe but thinking jacking apart (with a sash cramp) would be more precise and controllable.

I will check in the cold light of day how much extra space I need and where.

 

[Dadam]

A busy week and weekend so I did get to it until last night, but it's now sorted, thanks for all your help.

I didn't file anything, but I spread the fork a little with a reversible clamp (turns out my nice screw sash cramp doesn't have reversible jaws) and to make things easier removed the rack and mudguards and detached the caliper. Anti rotation washers are now inside the dropouts and small washers outside. Still a faff to get in past the derailleur. One annoyance is the flatted axle keeps rotating out of alignment and needs a spanner or something to twist it back vertical.

As this is a commuter I didn't fancy messing with all that on the road on a rainy winter evening so have ordered and fit a set of Marathon Plus!

Bike is nearly complete, I just need to sort the cable routing and neaten it up a bit. I did a quick half mile test ride round the estate and all seems well.

 

[Nealh]

I couldn't see a torque arm/plate , one will be well advised to try and fit at least one to prevent any axle spin out.

 

[Dadam]

I don't know about those. It's a 250w, 45nm motor that I'm not intending to uprate and I would expect Woosh would advise if one were needed.

 

[saneagle]

I don't know about those. It's a 250w, 45nm motor that I'm not intending to uprate and I would expect Woosh would advise if one were needed.

What was that you were saying about the axle rotating in the drop-out? Regardless of that, if I did that installation, I'd fit a torque arm with that motor at that current. It might not be necessary if you did the nights really tight, but you'll be very sad if your axle spins out and shreds the motor cable, which is a very difficult thing to repair, as it takes out the hall sensors and often the controller too.

 

[Dadam]

What was that you were saying about the axle rotating in the drop-out? Regardless of that, if I did that installation, I'd fit a torque arm with that motor at that current. It might not be necessary if you did the nights really tight, but you'll be very sad if your axle spins out and shreds the motor cable, which is a very difficult thing to repair, as it takes out the hall sensors and often the controller too.

I hear what you're saying, but what I meant was the axle rotating before it was in the dropout while manhandling the wheel into position. Probably due to spring tension of derailleur pulling on the cassette.

 

[saneagle]

I hear what you're saying, but what I meant was the axle rotating before it was in the dropout while manhandling the wheel into position. Probably due to spring tension of derailleur pulling on the cassette.

OK, that's normal, except that if you had a torque arm on the axle, you could use it instead of spanner to hold the axle straight. Your motor is quite torquey. For a few quid, you have peace of mind.

 

[Dadam]

OK, that's normal, except that if you had a torque arm on the axle, you could use it instead of spanner to hold the axle straight. Your motor is quite torquey. For a few quid, you have peace of mind.

Fair point, aluminium isn't the hardest material (one reason I didn't want to remove any material) and simple wear and tear could start to widen the gap. I'll look into it thanks.

 

[saneagle]

Fair point, aluminium isn't the hardest material (one reason I didn't want to remove any material) and simple wear and tear could start to widen the gap. I'll look into it thanks.

Your frame is not strong enough to resist the axle torque. That's the same if you had a much weaker motor. The torque is mainly resisted by the friction from the nuts. If they're not tight, the axle will spin out. A torque arm gives you insurance against the nuts not being tight enough. In the meantime, keep them tight.

 

[Raboa]

If I was doing this I would file the dropouts sides (sometimes this is not needed( and the depth
An ebike axle is 12mm high plus the height of the tab washer plus a clearance height. You want the top of the tab on the washer to be sitting below the top of the dropout
If the axle starts to grind the frame when not done correctly it will cause the top / lip of the dropout to widen, causing uneven wear.
I would buy a flat file and a half round file and slowly file the dropouts

 

[saneagle]

I've just noticed that the tabs on the anti-rotation washers are floating in air. Like Raboa says, you should really file your drop-outs deeper. With those tab washers as they are now, you definitely need at least one torque arm urgently.

 

[Nealh]

On OEM push bikes it is very unusual to have deep dropouts to accomodate 12mm axles, at the least they need to be 1.5mm deeper and more likely 3mm is needed.
In time the ali drop out can wear on the ends .
Woosh OEM bikes will have a torque arm , more discreet ones are often used today rather then the older heath robinson affairs.
For the cost of buying one or even as some of us do (make our own from a scrap piece of 2 - 3mm steel), it will possibly save a lot of grief in the future..

 

[Waspy]

All this talk of axles spinning out is making me sweat.
So I've ordered one of these:

 

[Dadam]

Filing dropouts deeper would mean I'd need to add a spacer to the brake caliper mount. Sigh, this is all getting further from what I wanted: a lightweight, discreet kit that wouldn't require too drastic changes to the bike, ie I could put it back to close to standard.