working it out!

[Alchemist]

Hi there,
I've been reading the various forum posts with some interest, as I'm looking into acquiring an ebike later this spring or summer, but there's just so much to choose from!

I'm now beyond middle age (though hopefully not quite 'past it' yet!), and although a former non-comp/leisure cyclist and still reasonably physically fit and active, I'm not above seeking wise counsel from the more experienced pedelec riders and contributors in my quest to find the right bike. My area is undulating, with climbs of up to 150 metres in alt diff., though hardly 'Mt Ventoux' terrain. Much of the terrain I look forward to exploring is well tracked, though I don't really see myself as hopping stumps or boulders, as opposed to exploring the byways and less travelled tracks. Oh, and I'm around 100kg, and a 6 foot tall imperial/metric mix!

So far I've been tempted by the (Derby Cycle stablemetes) Kalkhoff Endeavour, Focus Aventura and Raleigh Stoker, all of which seem very similarly specced, albeit differently coloured; I understand the Kalkhoff has the better lights! These 3 models mentioned all use the Impulse 2.0 mid drive, which I understand to be a very competent motor, though I have yet to see or experience any of the main mid motor makes. I intend to use the bike for leisure trips, and off the public road, hence my interest in the S-pedelec versions, though I have also thought that should I wish to use the public roads at some future point, it might be more sensible to consider a 'compliant' type e-bike, and consider fitting a de-restrictor as and/or when required, should I feel the need for above 15mph assistance when back off the public highway - I think Im right in saying a de restrictor is available for the Impulse 2 motor? I should emphsise here - I don't feel I have any particular 'need for speed', just the option of having any assistance continue to around the 20mph level. So no BOSS system or Crystalyte 'mega hub' with a frameful or backpack full of LiPo cells, thanks!

One common feature of the Impulse drive offerings which attracts me is the possibility of using it in conjunction with the much vaunted and by all accounts worthy 17Ah battery, which is persuasive in terms of extending the range potential, which I do indeed give quite some weight to in my consideration, though of course this exteded range may be somewhat offset against increased speed somewhat, should the de-restrictor dongle be used for an off-the-public-road foray. One other bike I have been also considering has been the Univega Vision Impulse 1.0 e-MTB, with its upturned Impulse mid drive (a la Haibike's Bosch motor), which offers improved ground clearance, should I find myself off the beaten trail at some point, though I am not sure whether this model is available in the UK. I can imagine that with the 'magic stick' and the larger 17aH capacity battery I might be content toodling away at 17-19mph on the local tracks and unadopted roads. I wouldn't be averse to sourcing one of these on the continent if needs be, i.e. if it turns out that they are not available here in Blighty; the advantage as I see it with this latter offering (the Univega Vision) is that it is not an S pedelec, and is out-of-the-wrapper street-legal, but, assuming the Impulse 2 mid drive can be tuned, could still offer that extra couple of MPH without the cut out at 15 mph, coupled with the extra range afforded by the 17Ah battery, or (more properly) the range reduction, commensurate with any tuned mid drive motor, would be somewhat ameliorated by the greater battery capacity offered by the Impulse system, as opposed to others.

BUT - I also read great things about the compact yet powerful Panasonic Hub drive in terms of climbing ability, and then there's the Falco hub motor, which, though heavier for sure, also appeals, though I imagine that this latter might necessitate a bit more maintenance as regards spoke tensioning. At my time of life, I can understand the appeal/temptation of having a type of bike that permits one to take a 'breather' from pedalling on your journey without actually stopping and getting off, though I understand there are other bikes available with throttle and PAS! From what I can gather though, KTM do not offer anything other than a pedelec system with the panasonic hub. I do however like the idea of a lighter weight bike like the KTM P- Series, that is not going to be too demanding in terms of rider input should one run low on juice or have an e-glitch whilst out and about.

Oh, and the whisper about the new spec Ezee Raptor has not gone un-noticed either - very intriguing - might be hopping those rocks after all!
As said - still working it out!

 

[Jonah]

The Panasonic hub is powerful but has very limited range. If you want a large battery the Kalkhoffs are probably your best bet. No dongles for the Impulse but there are ways of increasing the cut-off speed (can't go into this on the forum).

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Yes, they can be made to go rather well without having to buy a dongle.

 

[Alchemist]

.... and that's why I'm still working it out! I see a few suppliers on the net offering dongles for the 'Impulse' motor, but I don't know whether this extends to the Imp 2, but from what you guys are saying there may be an alternative to the dongle route, though whether this would be readily switchable, as a dongle seems to be, er assuming there might be such a gizmo for the motor in Q in the first place! More food for thought!

Thanks for the advice re the P hub Jonah, good to know - when I said a lightweight bike would be an adv. when you run low on juice, I did not mean that I would intend doing this - much rather get the good of the elec. system from a set-up that help can get me out and about and then back, preferably!

Thx for the confirmation that a fix is indeed possible d8veh - curiouser and curiouser...

 

[Deleted member 4366]

After a bit of latetal thinking, I think that there is a way of switching the power profile like you can with the dongle, but I'm not sure how quick it is to change.

 

[Alchemist]

Oo-er - sounds a bit beyond my competency, just thinking about trying to get it going without stabilisers is my current level, I'll maybe look into what is available off the shelf and whether Imp 2 can be dongled.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Can you change the SIM card in your phone. If so, you wouldn't have any difficulty.

 

[Alchemist]

Ah, well that doesn't sound too much like rocket science! I might just have to look into that; the inverted Univega Vision Impulse suitably de-resricted sounds like an increasingly attractive prospect, if it an be found.

As for the 'Science bit', would I be near the mark to thereby deduce that the Impulse operates somewhat similarly to the Bosch 250/350 W unit, inasmuch as its a broadly similar thing but subjected to a software tweak (and maybe a paint jobbie) according to the type of pedelec/'S' pedelec recipient host bike?

Haven't received anything as yet in response to my query with Univega as to whether the Vision Imp is in fact available over here, and nor have I been able to find anyone else speaking about the model, this might be a sign to get back in line with the rest of the 'peleton' and chase up what is available here; going from what other threads have mentioned re customer service and back up matters in the event (however unlikely) of warranty and general after sales issues, I'm cool with that of course, just was curious to find out whether said bike is/is not available over here, as for my own application I can see the attraction in having a greater ground clearance like the Haibike models, but with the larger batt capacity of the battery. I have read somewhere else that the Impulse 2 is at least as good as the Bosch motor, possibly quieter, but that is something not readily discernible what with all the music over every Yt vid I've thus far come across - I'm surprised that there seems not to be any clear amateur vid even demonstrating the un-doctored sound of either of the main players' respective mid drive motor units in operation - I should maybe be searching for this in German - still working it out!

Has anyone posted as to the new Impulse 2.0 drive over here? It's still relatively new here, and the market does seem to be somewhat dominated by Bosch unit bikes, but they're certainly talking up the battery of the Imp system, both in terms of increased range and charge multiples - assuming they're using similar quality cell technology, the difference must be down to BMS, unless the Imp has 'new, improved' cells - sounds like another thing to investigate/check out others' experiences of.

 

[Cyclezee]

Hi Alchemist,

You mentioned Falco in your post and from a slightly biased point of view I have to say it is the best direct drive system on the market that I have ridden and so versatile.
It has a built in torque sensor, crank sensor and throttle. They now also have a front wheel version too that can even be fitted to a Brompton.
With the latest software each motor can be configured to the owners individual requirements.
As well as retro-fit conversion kits they are also available as a complete bike from the Genesis range.
On top of that the 5 year warranty is the best on the market.

 

[Alchemist]

For sure, John, as far as I can see, the Falco appears to be the best of the DD hub motors available, far more advanced than the others in the fray; from what I can see and read, the rest of the Chinese and US offerings seem to tend to sacrifice weight for raw power, and quite a few seem prone to problems, whether with the inbuilt controllers, Hall sensors, or owing to ingression of water; whilst I can see that there have also been a few hiccups with the Falco motors, I would be confident that they are now pretty much sorted, and should any problem arise, then they (Falco) appear to be pretty contactable, and are keen and indeed good at trying to resolve issues quickly.

My only misgivings toward hub motors in general is the trade off between weight/balance in the case of direct drive units and their inability to take advantage of the bike's gearing system; geared units seem to be (personally speaking) somewhat noisy for my preference, albeit this opinion has been solely derived from the YT videos showing them without music masking the noise levels of the bike when being driven. I also tend (at this still early point in my research) toward favouring the mid drive type of bike, as I have an innate preference (based upon carrying weight from time to time on a conventional bike, albeit via a rear carrier, which I acknowledge to be not entirely the same thing as having a heavier rear hub) to have any additional weight being carried low and between the wheels rather than being housed within the wheel structure, though again, I have to admit to being a complete e-bike novice, not having as yet tried either system, but reaching this not-quite-fixed opinion based purely on theoretical design issues as opposed to any direct experience of test-riding either type. I'm pretty sure I would not wish to have anything heavier than a Falco hub within the wheel structure, as whilst I can certainly see it being possible to beef up tyre, rim and spokes, and indeed the dropouts on the frame of the recipient bike to accommodate the greater mass, I'm used to the feel of a conventional 'acoustic' back wheel, with less mass and potential gyroscopic effect on the ride characteristics of the bike. Of course this would not prevent me from test riding both types of machine, it is simply a question of geographic distance (living in the far North) that until now has prevented me from trying any e-bike type, though I am rapidly getting to the point where I could conceivably see myself making a journey South to try various of the bike types/models that have caught my attention.

As I see it, the (acoustic) bicycle is already wonderfully efficient, and basically hard to improve upon much, other than by augmenting drive by means of electric-powered assistance; until recently, this option has been somewhat hampered by lack of energy density/kilo of battery pack to be carried, though this has now reached the point where the combination of efficient and comparatively lightweight motor units and the recent advances in battery technology have turned the corner decisively in favour of the combination. From what I have read here too, it would seem that studies on the Continent point to both greater frequency of use of e-bikes and a tendency by their riders to continue to use them beyond the point where conventional cycle riders tend to 'hang up their clips', though this is of course a generalisation - indeed, my own grandfather gave up driving the car at 92 and the bike at 94, his being a really quite heavy 'butcher's' type bike with strong carrier on front of the bars, and fixed gear. In his case, deteriorating eyesight was the determining factor, rather than mechanic/physical constraints.

As someone wisely said, a single test is worth more than a hundred theories, and I think it's time to stop reading and start (test) riding!

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Interesting comments, thanks. i agree with nearly everything, but you have to be careful about keeping up to date when it concerns motors' reputations for problems. It's been a long time since we've seen problems with hall sensors in this forum, and even water ingress is becoming rare. The recent motors from Bafang are pretty well sealed, and if one takes reasonable precautions, it can reduce the risk further. I still see bikes with the wire exiting the motor upwards without a drip loop. The other area I'm interested in is the disc brake screws. I always seal mine with thread-lock or silicone because water can find its way down the thread. I would see the Bafang CST as the Falcos main compeditor geared hub-motor. I've never heard of a problem with one yet, and there's an awful lot more of them out there than Falcos. I'm not saying that it's a better motor, just that you can't judge it on the basis of what happened with other hub-motors from 5 years ago.

The Falco is a whole system, where you adjust parameters by software. The Geared motors are a modular system. You adjust parameters to your needs with hardware by choosing the appropriate modules. Apart from that, there's little to choose between the two systems in terms of performance,

 

[Alchemist]

V well put d8veh, I suppose my comments re hub drives were in the main influenced by what I have gleaned from the ES forum pages, and as you rightly point out, are not necessarily directly transferable to the motors being used here in the UK now. Very valid point made about water being able to travel via threads on screws/threaded holes too.

If time permitted, and trade barriers/customs charges lifted between the US and here (oh, and the Law here was slightly more generous in terms of limitations on permissible motor Wattage) I'd be sorely tempted to acquire the BBS02 unit, and then find a suitable controller, both from one of the reputable and traceable sources emerging Stateside, and couple them to a "decent" capacity battery (this latter aspect being one of the areas that gives me cause to hesitate with a number of current (npi ) setups offered, though I do recognise that to have 'just enough' energy for one's purposes is more efficient than, eg doing short commutes with an overly heavy high Ah cap. battery on board), and build my own, but realistically, I am aware that I'll almost certainly end up buying a ready to go bike here from a reputable shop, as I do see it as being important to try to support bona fide outlets offering both sales and after sales service and repair facilities here.

 

[rachel]

Hi there,
I've been reading the various forum posts with some interest, as I'm looking into acquiring an ebike later this spring or summer, but there's just so much to choose from!

I'm now beyond middle age (though hopefully not quite 'past it' yet!), and although a former non-comp/leisure cyclist and still reasonably physically fit and active, I'm not above seeking wise counsel from the more experienced pedelec riders and contributors in my quest to find the right bike. My area is undulating, with climbs of up to 150 metres in alt diff., though hardly 'Mt Ventoux' terrain. Much of the terrain I look forward to exploring is well tracked, though I don't really see myself as hopping stumps or boulders, as opposed to exploring the byways and less travelled tracks. Oh, and I'm around 100kg, and a 6 foot tall imperial/metric mix!

So far I've been tempted by the (Derby Cycle stablemetes) Kalkhoff Endeavour, Focus Aventura and Raleigh Stoker, all of which seem very similarly specced, albeit differently coloured; I understand the Kalkhoff has the better lights! These 3 models mentioned all use the Impulse 2.0 mid drive, which I understand to be a very competent motor, though I have yet to see or experience any of the main mid motor makes. I intend to use the bike for leisure trips, and off the public road, hence my interest in the S-pedelec versions, though I have also thought that should I wish to use the public roads at some future point, it might be more sensible to consider a 'compliant' type e-bike, and consider fitting a de-restrictor as and/or when required, should I feel the need for above 15mph assistance when back off the public highway - I think Im right in saying a de restrictor is available for the Impulse 2 motor? I should emphsise here - I don't feel I have any particular 'need for speed', just the option of having any assistance continue to around the 20mph level. So no BOSS system or Crystalyte 'mega hub' with a frameful or backpack full of LiPo cells, thanks!

One common feature of the Impulse drive offerings which attracts me is the possibility of using it in conjunction with the much vaunted and by all accounts worthy 17Ah battery, which is persuasive in terms of extending the range potential, which I do indeed give quite some weight to in my consideration, though of course this exteded range may be somewhat offset against increased speed somewhat, should the de-restrictor dongle be used for an off-the-public-road foray. One other bike I have been also considering has been the Univega Vision Impulse 1.0 e-MTB, with its upturned Impulse mid drive (a la Haibike's Bosch motor), which offers improved ground clearance, should I find myself off the beaten trail at some point, though I am not sure whether this model is available in the UK. I can imagine that with the 'magic stick' and the larger 17aH capacity battery I might be content toodling away at 17-19mph on the local tracks and unadopted roads. I wouldn't be averse to sourcing one of these on the continent if needs be, i.e. if it turns out that they are not available here in Blighty; the advantage as I see it with this latter offering (the Univega Vision) is that it is not an S pedelec, and is out-of-the-wrapper street-legal, but, assuming the Impulse 2 mid drive can be tuned, could still offer that extra couple of MPH without the cut out at 15 mph, coupled with the extra range afforded by the 17Ah battery, or (more properly) the range reduction, commensurate with any tuned mid drive motor, would be somewhat ameliorated by the greater battery capacity offered by the Impulse system, as opposed to others.

BUT - I also read great things about the compact yet powerful Panasonic Hub drive in terms of climbing ability, and then there's the Falco hub motor, which, though heavier for sure, also appeals, though I imagine that this latter might necessitate a bit more maintenance as regards spoke tensioning. At my time of life, I can understand the appeal/temptation of having a type of bike that permits one to take a 'breather' from pedalling on your journey without actually stopping and getting off, though I understand there are other bikes available with throttle and PAS! From what I can gather though, KTM do not offer anything other than a pedelec system with the panasonic hub. I do however like the idea of a lighter weight bike like the KTM P- Series, that is not going to be too demanding in terms of rider input should one run low on juice or have an e-glitch whilst out and about.

Oh, and the whisper about the new spec Ezee Raptor has not gone un-noticed either - very intriguing - might be hopping those rocks after all!
As said - still working it out!

Hi I have found the city hopper from tesco to be a great little bike , it folds up, great for the hills, is pedal assisted only. Had mine for two years and worked a treat till last week, at 400 pounds is well worth the money, sturdy frame, a little heavy, however does not come with a manual, and trying to get it fixed for me is a problem. If its a higher spec you are after then great, but i do like this little 20inch wheeled bike

 

[Alchemist]

Thanks for this Rachel, in the end we went for Kalkhoffs, I got an Impulse 2 Endeavour 10 spd and the boss got herself an Impulse Agattu, loving them both. Both Pedal assist only too. I feel I could go to 46T (bike comes with 44T ring) on the front chainring, as I am spinning out at 31.5mph, and feel a little 'light feet-ed' on the uphills, even in the lower half of the cassette, the upper half simply not getting used.

 

[trex]

...
I'd be sorely tempted to acquire the BBS02 unit, and then find a suitable controller, both from one of the reputable and traceable sources emerging Stateside, and couple them to a "decent" capacity battery (this latter aspect being one of the areas that gives me cause to hesitate with a number of current (npi ) setups offered, though I do recognise that to have 'just enough' energy for one's purposes is more efficient than, eg doing short commutes with an overly heavy high Ah cap. battery on board), and build my own, but realistically, I am aware that I'll almost certainly end up buying a ready to go bike here from a reputable shop, as I do see it as being important to try to support bona fide outlets offering both sales and after sales service and repair facilities here.

just a very small point, the BBS01/02 have built in controller, making them about as easy to fit as a front hub conversion and without needing torque arms. BTW, the chainring has 46 teeth.