Woosh or Raleigh?

[Woosh]

The Chinese crank drive motors have always been smoother and more responsive than the hub drives, until recently where we see wide use of hub motors with high reduction ratio like the Aikemas.
RobF, what you failed to appreciate is that for most people, functionality is the most important factor.
If you have arthritic joints, riding uphill with a Bosch Classic motor is a challenge. Going back to 2013 when I brought the 7-speed Sirocco CD to the Redbridge event (March 2013), it was a revelation to a lot of people, not so much because the Sirocco CD was much cheaper (£799), but because it had a throttle, hills were easily conquered with it, even with arthritic knees. One of the forum member commented: it was as rare as 'hen's teeth'. Indeed, it was a great success. Some of the original batch are still in use.
2017: I started using the 48V Bafang MaxDrive (100NM) on my first fat bike.It's an excellent motor.

https://wooshbikes.co.uk/2017/fb6/fb6-4.jpg

2019: I started using the 36V Bafang MaxDrive (100NM) on the Rambla. Now I can get the same power at 36V in a lightweight package.

That's what I call progress.

2013: Woosh Sirocco-CD

2019: Woosh Rambla
https://wooshbikes.co.uk/?rambla

 

[Nealh]

This thread has changed again like others in to Mid drive vs hub drive, a new thread needs starting to pit them against each.

 

[Woosh]

RobF always rubbishes Chinese bikes, not just hub drives.

 

[Nealh]

RobF always rubbishes Chinese bikes, not just hub drives.

Yep, this is evident reading most of his replies when the subject is raised.
Any how I have started a mid motor vs hub motor thread so maybe we can keep the subject in one place rather then keep derailing someone's thread with bias concerns over this and that.
Without China I doubt the e drive on bicycle use would be so advanced to day.

 

[RobF]

RobF always rubbishes Chinese bikes, not just hub drives.

No I don't.

I've suggested plenty to people who don't have the budget for a European design crank drive.

In this thread I've suggested the OP should not rule out your Big Bear.

My point is the two types of bike are now close to competing on price.

There is no bias from me, I just call it as I see it.

If Nealh is wary of bias, he would be better off carefully examining the posts from the sales agents on here of individual ebike companies.

And as regards ticking me off for thread drift, Neal ought to look at the thread title and the OP.

Just to be clear, this thread is about choosing between a Chinese hub bike and a European crank drive.

 

[Woosh]

If Nealh is wary of bias, he would be better off carefully examining the posts from the sales agents on here of individual ebike companies.

I am more wary that you don't take time to look into the OP's requirements.
How far, how steep is his commute?, how heavy, how tall is he? does he have any health condition? which frame type does he like best? does he have a fixed budget?
Also, comparing my £1000 bike against a £1300 bike sold by a shop 200 miles away is not level playing.

 

[Woosh]

Just to remind you how the thread started.
the OP was interested in the £1,049 Woosh Camino.
He wanted to compare with the 2018 Raleigh Motus, originally costing £1,650 now reduced to £1,295 sold online by e-bikesdirect.co.uk

Battery: Camino 15AH (540WH), Motus: 300WH
Motor: Camino: DWG07 hub motor 42NM at the rear wheel, Motus: Bosch Active Line 40NM in turbo mode at the cranks
Fork: Camino: Suntour NEX, Motus: Suntour NEX
Gears: Camino 8-speed derailleur, Motus: 7-speed derailleur
Wheels: Camino 700C double wall rims, Motus: 700C double wall rims
Colour: matt black, Motus: grey
Brakes: hydraulic front and rear, Motus: hydraulic front and rear
Weight: Camino: 23.5kgs, Motus: 24.5kgs
Rack and mudguards: Camino: fitted, Motus: fitted

Camino:

Camino MTB electric bicycle from Woosh

The Woosh Camino, a very sturdy electric bike with hydraulic brakes 36V 15/17AH battery from Woosh. Price range: �£1049-�£1119.

wooshbikes.co.uk

Raleigh Motus:

Buy a Raleigh Motus Grey Cross Bar Derailleur 700c Electric Bike From E-Bikes Direct

The new 2018 Raleigh Motus takes the best of their previous Bosch equipped models along with Shimano disc brakes.

www.e-bikesdirect.co.uk

 

[RobF]

I am more wary that you don't take time to look into the OP's requirements.

The OP's requirement was for us to compare your Camino, a Chinese hub bike, against a Motus, a European design crank drive.

That is what I did.

There is nothing in his other requirements that expressly rules out one bike or the other.

But there are hints.

One of those is carrying a relatively heavy 10kg dead weight over the rear wheel.

It is plain common sense that sways towards a crank drive.

The smaller battery on the Motus leans it towards the woosh, but the commute is only a maximum of 16 miles.

He could do that in turbo on the Bosch bike.

A bigger battery is worth having, but is not essential in this case.

It might make the difference between charging every day on the Motus and charging every second day on the woosh.

No point in blathering on about hills in this case because I know the Motus would cruise the specified terrain, and I would expect the woosh to do the same.

All the above is largely repetitious from me.

So part of the OP's requirements have I 'not looked into'?

Given that I try to keep my posts on the forum relatively short, so there's no point in taking up space on stuff both bikes could do, which is most of it.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

One of those is carrying a relatively heavy 10kg dead weight over the rear wheel.

It is plain common sense that sways towards a crank drive.

Hardly "plain common sense" when several of us have pointed out that you are wrong.

No point in blathering on about hills in this case because I know the Motus would cruise the specified terrain, and I would expect the woosh to do the same.

Really, so how steep are the OP's "hilly forest tracks" then? How fit is the OP?

 

[RobF]

Hardly "plain common sense" when several of us have pointed out that you are wrong.


Really, so how steep are the OP's "hilly forest tracks" then? How fit is the OP?

Yes, and he might have trouble cycling over the straws one or two on here are clutching at.

No worries, so long as keeps between the split hairs.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

Yes, and he might have trouble cycling over the straws one or two on here are clutching at.

No worries, so long as keeps between the split hairs.

Forget the strawman, how steep are the OP's "hilly forest tracks"?

How fit is the OP?

If you're sooo confident he can ride the route on a Motus then you must know the answers, otherwise you're trying to mislead us.

 

[RobF]

How fit is the OP?

If you're sooo confident he can ride the route on a Motus then you must know the answers, otherwise you're trying to mislead us.

Given the bikes have a similar amount of grunt, what is your point?

I think you just ran over one of those split hairs.

 

[Woosh]

the 2018 Bosch Active Line is the least powerful Bosch motor. It has about just as much grunt as the 2kg Aikema 85SX hub motor that I fitted to my Woosh Faro.
Your motor is nearly twice as torquey as the one fitted to that Motus.

It's like you climbing hills in permanent eco mode. It may be OK for a little while, but hardly ideal. The OP needs at least the Active Line Plus for his weight (110kgs, 17st) and more if it's hilly where he lives.

 

[Ocsid]

the 2018 Bosch Active Line is the least powerful Bosch motor. It has about just as much grunt as the 2kg Aikema 85SX hub motor that I fitted to my Woosh Faro.

Without more details we can't simply draw those parallels.

What matters is the force delivered at the road, that relates to the wheel's torque and its radius.
The useful torque the Bosch in the Motus can provide depends on the bike's selected gear, an option the hub motor has not available.
With the hub motor only the human delivered power can benefit from the torque multiplication of the bike's gearing.
In the Motus, both human and motor benefit from the bike's gearing.
Clearly, the benefit or otherwise depends on the specifics of the overall gearing.

 

[Woosh]

Without more details we can't simply draw those parallels.

What matters is the force delivered at the road, that relates to the wheel's torque and its radius.
The useful torque the Bosch in the Motus can provide depends on the bike's selected gear, an option the hub motor has not available.
With the hub motor only the human delivered power can benefit from the torque multiplication of the bike's gearing.
In the Motus, both human and motor benefit from the bike's gearing.
Clearly, the benefit or otherwise depends on the specifics of the overall gearing.

You could also argue for the advantages of hub motors in the context hill climbing:

1. you don't have to break a sweat
2. it's dead easy to maintain your optimal cadence
3. It's kinder for your drive drain

 

[Woosh]

I am ordering this week a new batch of Camino, this time, designed for 27.5" x 2.1" wheels, 48V drive system geared for the 'fun' element.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

Given the bikes have a similar amount of grunt, what is your point?

I think you just ran over one of those split hairs.

The motors may have similar power rating but there can be big differences in the way it's delivered depending on the gearing.

This is why it's important to know the gradients to be encountered and the fitness level of the cyclist.

Surely you knew that?????

 

[RobF]

No, it isn't important.

We are talking about riding a bike, not microbiology.

 

[Woosh]

No, it isn't important.

We are talking about riding a bike, not microbiology.

On the flat, yes.

I wonder how long you'd keep your bike if your motor were the weedy 40NM original Bosch AL DU instead of the 75NM CX,

 

[Deleted member 25121]

No, it isn't important.

We are talking about riding a bike, not microbiology.

It's basic GCSE level physics that you're struggling with.