Will Throttles be Throttled By The EU? :confused:

I have read that it is almost inevitable that EU legislation will outlaw throttles on eBikes. Any info insight or views on that?

 

If they do, what system would fair better hub or crank, or would it make no difference?

Independently acting throttles are already illegal under EU law and have been since 10th November 2003.

 

That's also true for Britain as well since we adopted that law as we were ordered to do, but the civil service failed to cancel our old British law as instructed, leaving our prior throttle permission still in place as well.

 

What's happening now is a tidying up of the position by our DfT, coincident with Europe revising it's own regulations that apply to all member states. So it's not a question of independently acting throttles being banned, they already are, but more a question of whether the EU will now permit them in response to appeals to do so. On past precedent and taking into account the latest statements emanating, I think they won't and that the DfT will follow suit and ban independent throttles in future. They have said this will not be retrospective, existing throttle bikes will be able to continue in use.

The question is why ban them?

I consider them a road safety enhancement when starting off from a stop line etc. as they reduce the initial wobble.

Also, what about the Disablity Discrimination Act? I need to be able to throttle along at times.

These are the grounds on which many have contacted the DfT during a recent consultation process Mike.

 

Whether that will influence them or the EU is a moot point. One problem is that all of mainland Europe have been without throttles for almost 8 years, seemingly without protest and with e-bikes becoming infinitely more popular there than here in Britain where they've gained little.

 

You can see that having throttles through a legal mistake here hasn't exactly proved good for e-biking, while not having throttles hasn't prevented the Dutch reaching every 8th bike sold being an e-bike.

 

That makes our argument that having throttles widens e-bike use a bit empty.

On Graeme's question of what would be best, crank or hub, plus Mike's disability point, some of the crank drive systems give a very big push off the mark initially, the Panasonic one in particular. One I owned could even be made to wheelie slightly. Clearly that is a good choice for those of limited ability who like some help to get away smoothly and quickly, and they are popular in mainland Europe. On the other hand, it doesn't suit our one legged member who wants a throttle to power him past the weak half of a crank rotation.

My front hub powered Batribike Folder has a little kick to get going but there is a time lag . I use the throttle only to walk alongside one stupendous hill here in Barry .I defy any E bike to climb the hill on which Bryn lives in the `Gavin and Stacey` Series without being reported to the RSPOf Ebikes .

Nice to know we follow all the rules of the Continent, but when the boot is on the other foot it doesn`t seem to work ! I`m thinking here of Legislation affecting Mopeds and Motorcycles just for a start and don`t even mention the French and our Beef a few years ago .

 

Nice to know we follow all the rules of the Continent, but when the boot is on the other foot it doesn`t seem to work ! I`m thinking here of Legislation affecting Mopeds and Motorcycles just for a start

 

How can you say that when I've just illustrated that we haven't been following the rules, keeping throttles after they were banned in 2003?

 

I don't understand your reference to mopeds and motorcycles legislation either, can you explain? In what way are the continentals not following the rules?

I live in Denmark and have a throttle on my Tonaro Enduro. The chances on getting stopped on a bike in Denmark are slim.

The chances of getting stopped by a police officer who knows throttles on electric bikes are illegal are even slimmer.

It is ok making laws like this but as an ex police officer I can tell you that there are enough everyday laws without having to remember obscure electric bike laws as well.

 

Steve

Our Civil Servants make genuine mistakes , they make deliberate ones ? New test introduced for Motorcycles several years ago to achieve 31 mph on the swerve test ? We spent £70 million on off road centres `cause we could only do 30 mph on our roads . After loads of accidents we have now altered it .Couldn`t they have been decent enough to let us do the swerve at 30 mph ? Now gearing up to make Hi-Vis clothing compulsory ? They ride Mopeds on the Continent at 15 years , up from 14 years recently .Why are we different , I thought the idea was uniformity ? Perhaps it`s because I hate the Eurocrats and it`s getting through to me Flecc .

But the differences are ours, not theirs! We've joined Europe but are so half hearted about it that we don't adopt the whole thing. It's not their fault we've stuck to miles and not adopted kilometres, or that we continue to do so many other things our own way.

 

When joining a club, we should obey the club rules and co-operate, not constantly argue for renegotiation and disobey the common laws. If we wanted to do that, we should have been honest and not joined in the first place.

 

Since we are the only ones behaving like that, either we are in the wrong or everyone else is. Obviously it's us.

We did not join the present EU.

We had a referendum to join the Common Market, and that is the only legal thing we belong to.

The fact that various politicians on the make, subsequently signed up to the EU is unconstitutional.

The only Britons that belong to the EU are Ted Heath, John Major and Gordon Brown.

We did not join the present EU.

We had a referendum to join the Common Market, and that is the only legal thing we belong to.

The fact that various politicians on the make, subsequently signed up to the EU is unconstitutional.

The only Britons that belong to the EU are Ted Heath, John Major and Gordon Brown.

 

Not so, we signed up to the Maastricht treaty and are members.

 

The second point you make isn't valid simply because, unlike most countries, we do not have a constitution, so nothing done can be unconstitutional.

Not as a single document Flecc but we do have constitutional documents...

 

Does Britain have a written constitution?

Yes, I realise that NRG, but that hotch-potch over time still doesn't amount to a recognised constitution of the kind that most countries have established, and certainly doesn't apply in the manner Mike implied.

 

To clarify:

 

In signing up to the Maastricht Treaty our leaders acknowledged that we are full members of the EU.

 

In voting in laws which only applied to member states, like the 2002/EC24 e-bike legislation, our parliament acknowledged we are full members of the EU.

 

In voting in Members of the European Parliament, a large proportion of the British public accepted that we are full members of the EU.

 

The persistent notion that we only ever signed up to the Common Market is clearly nonsense.

When we voted to join it was presented as a loose consortium of Countries for trade purposes ie Common Market , since then it has developed or hopes to develop into a Common Europe . Our Politicians in Opposition were going to put the brakes on the whole bandwagon .However once in Government they get cold feet , enjoy the clubby atmosphere and conveniently use it to beat us with a big stick, saying they can`t do this and that because of the EEU . Bit like the Tories using the Liberals to do the dirty or unpleasant bits at the moment and I say that as someone who voted for them !

I have decided to leave it at that. There are plenty of other forums to argue politics.

Mike

Agreed Mike.

I wish we (Britain and Ireland) could be a bit more like the French and Italians and just ignore EU laws which are inconvenient, instead of wholeheartedly adopting and enforcing them like good little boys.

The EU isn't about people, it's about corporations and money.

Wow, there are some very strong views out there...

 

Thanks flecc for your initial response.

However, My questions are...

 

I have read that it is almost inevitable that EU legislation will outlaw throttles on eBikes. Any info insight or views on that?

 

If they do, what system would fair better hub or crank, or would it make no difference?

 

If the banning of throttles in the UK is inevitable, does anyone have any idea when the EU/UK legislation is likely to come into force, would it be months or years?

Edited June 22, 201114 yr by Graeme

There's three options currently available.

 

Independent throttles can be used on EU specified machines, but only to four mph. How useful this would be to help from a standing start depends how the motor controller is set up. In the case of the Panasonic 'walk-alongside' throttle, it is so low powered it cannot be considered for use while the rider is seated on the machine. At least one Wisper model, the 705, when configured for EU use the throttle works independently, but only to four mph. The difference is, full power is available which means it can help to get the machine moving, even on a steepish upslope with the rider seated.

 

Centre-drive machines such as Panasonic, Yamaha, Bosch, Daum and many other new systems are all fitted with instant response pedal torque sensors incorporated into the crank-axles. The only time any of these machines would benefit from an independent throttle, is when climbing a hill too steep to ride. As mentioned in the first paragraph, the Panasonic throttle will at least provide enough power to help when pushing the machine up such a hill.

 

The currently popular Tonaro machines, which do not use crank-axle torque sensor, could be fitted with a chain tension sensor such as the TMM4. Sadly, losing the throttle on the Tonaro machines would deprive the riders of a unique capability shared only with Cyclone powered bikes, anybody figured out what that is?. Here's a couple of clues. Independent throttle and Deraillure gears. One more clue, 0-15 mph from a standing start.

 

EDIT: The TMM4 chain tension sensor could be used on hub-motored machines, the TMM4 signal fed into the controller throttle input line.

 

All the best

Bob

Edited June 22, 201114 yr by Blew it

I live in Denmark and have a throttle on my Tonaro Enduro. The chances on getting stopped on a bike in Denmark are slim.

The chances of getting stopped by a police officer who knows throttles on electric bikes are illegal are even slimmer.

It is ok making laws like this but as an ex police officer I can tell you that there are enough everyday laws without having to remember obscure electric bike laws as well.

 

Steve

The police where I am have a specialist bicycle unit who have ebikes in their stable* so I expect they are aware of the legislation. I've also come across riders of normal bikes who know the correct limits so it's not just an obscure hobby anymore.

FWIW I think the banning of the independent throttle has much to do with Panasonic who have used leverage to have Euro ebike rules made the same as the Japanese rules, which of course suits their market position beautifully.

I repeat, throttles have been banned in all EU countries since 10th November 2003. That was the date by which all member countries had to pass EU regulation 2002/EC24 into force, the instruction received by member governments on 9th May 2003. Like all member governments, the British parliament passed the order into law.

 

This had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Panasonic who barely had any presence in Europe when the order was devised in Europe in 2002 and who had only just invented their unit the year before.

 

I repeat as I've done so many times in this forum, the only reason we have throttles still in Britain is that our civil service failed to complete the EC24 instructions which also required that all national legislation on e-bikes was cancelled by the same date as the order was implemented. That left a loophole to continue to use the British EAPC regulations of 1983, as amended by the Road Traffic Act of 1988. We will be losing that loophole since the DfT have already archived the advice pages on the 1983 EAPC regulations, making their intentions clear.

 

So, once again as I've already posted above, the EU is not considering banning throttles, they are already banned. Our DfT is currently tidying up our 2003 mess and will be largely complying with the EU rules, but will not act until Europe has completed it's current review of the rules.

 

So the only questions now are, first, will the EU do a volte face and allow throttles to return, and second, will the DfT independently allow throttles if the EU decides against them.

.

Edited June 22, 201114 yr by flecc

 

I have read that it is almost inevitable that EU legislation will outlaw throttles on eBikes. Any info insight or views on that?

 

If they do, what system would fair better hub or crank, or would it make no difference?

 

If the banning of throttles in the UK is inevitable, does anyone have any idea when the EU/UK legislation is likely to come into force, would it be months or years?

 

My above post answers most of the questions Graeme, the timetable for any change is likely to be over a year yet but no-one can be certain.

 

Whether crank or hub motors are best when there's no throttle depends very much on the torque sensor operation, this effectively becoming the throttle. To date the crank drive units from Panasonic, Yamaha, Daum, Bosch et al have had the edge, the integration of the torque sensor and it's relative operating sophistication being much better than the crude devices used on hub motor bikes.

 

Things have been changing though, some of the newer independent torque sensors like that on the current Giant hub motor e-bikes have been excellent. Therefore I'd expect that improvement to be the trend, especially if there's no more throttles anywhere in Europe, this stimulating development.

Thank you flecc for taking the time to make this clear for me, and others (again). For people like me who have very little knowledge of the eBike scene, but who are seriously considering buying an eBike it is so helpful to have people like you who take the time to share your knowledge experience and views.

In case anyone gets the impression that Directive 2002/24/EC is about electric bicycles, it expressly is not. That directive is about "the type-approval of two or three-wheel motor vehicles" and only mentions electric cycles to exclude them. There are no actual regulations for electric cycles in the directive. In fact, there is no directive for electric cycles - the rules for those are left up to individual member states (but please read on).

 

The full text of the directive is available here:

 

EUR-Lex - 32002L0024 - EN

 

Concerning the required date of implementation, article 20 states "Member States shall bring into force before 9 May 2003 the laws, regulations and administrative provisions necessary to comply with this Directive". In fact, the UK government did not implement it until 11 December 2006. There is no requirement in the directive to repeal any national legislation. There is a requirement not to prohibit any vehicles (that is, motorcycles and mopeds) that comply with the directive.

 

So, what's the problem? The problem is that the exclusion clause (article 1.1(h) by the way) in Directive 2002/24/EC is not wide enough to exclude UK electric cycles with throttle-only operation. This doesn't ban them - it makes them subject to type approval. However, getting type approval for a normal UK-type electric cycle of any sort is next to impossible - the requirements are too onerous to make it practicable or financially viable.