Will battery recharge?
- Thread starter Ellababy1
- Start date
Do you know what type of battery it is?
Many are Li-ion nowadays, but certainly not all. This does affect the information required. Though the Internet seems to suggest that this is such a battery.
How did you prepare the battery for your long stay overseas?
What was the charge level before the overseas visit?
If it is a Li-ion, it is possible that the battery is now below the charge level that a charge is allowed to take place! This is done for safety reasons.
A so called special "0 Volt Charger" MIGHT recover it to some degree, which some good bike shops have for such problems. I only know of one seller for 36 volt batteries, and it is around 100 UK Pounds if I remember correctly. But there is no guarantee that the battery will be recovered after such a long time...
You might have to get the battery re-celled or replaced if the action has gone too far!
But as I don't know your battery type, or its nominal voltage, it is still only guessing, not fact!
I found this, and I think that you made a mistake, its apparently 36 VOLTS, not 36AH...Possibly 16AH....
The Freego Hawk Road Electric Bike is a superb bike, with a beautiful sleek design and performance that is to be admired, the Freego Hawk can give you up to 70 miles in range with the 36v 16ah battery version.
This looks like what you might need:-
Buy a Freego Battery Lithium Ion from E-Bikes Direct
Freego battery online at E-Bikesdirect. Freego batteries at great prices with superb after sales support for your Freego battery.
Andy
Not the best things to have done, but I would not expect it to be completely flat after a few months. Do you have a meter to measure voltage of battery and charger? Who re-celled it?
Measuring it's current voltage state may be useful if as you say it was fully charged, the voltage drop might be able to tell us something.
Often such a fault is down to a cell group dropping below LVC or about 3.2v or less, with knowledge and next to no cost it is possible to manually charge any cell group back up above LVC and for the pack to charge again.
Often such a fault is down to a cell group dropping below LVC or about 3.2v or less, with knowledge and next to no cost it is possible to manually charge any cell group back up above LVC and for the pack to charge again.
Don't kick yourself, it only hurts and does not help.
The battery companies do not IMHO, fully inform their customers of how the battery needs to be looked after, and there are a lot of differences of opinion, especially here!
But to keep such a battery fit for the time you were away, it needs to be charged up to 30-40% , and someone to check the voltage every 2-3 weeks.
That would be roughly 34-35 volts. And each time it dropped to say 31 volts, just top it up to 34-35 volts again.
Leaving the charger permanently on does damage a battery, though some dissagree on that point, as many believe that when the LED goes green, it stops charging! Maybe expensive chargers do just that, but cheap ones don't!! They check the battery voltage, and keep "topping it up" - FATAL!
I personally do not know of a charger that can handle that fully automatically, but I really do mean to build one (one day!), but I keep pushing the idea away.....
A possible simple way to go is maybe getting hold of a time switch, one that allows monthly programming (Do they even exist? I have never tried this myself!), and set it so it charges for say 10 minutes, every 2nd week, assuming that the 10 minutes is enough, which would need to be checked well beforehand....
I just looked at ebay, and most are 24 hour time switches, with a few electronic ones for 7 days...
But a 7 day timer, with say 5 minutes a week charge on the same weekday, might be a possibility. To be tested over several weeks of course...
I say again, I have only had such Ideas go through my head, but they are not very practical and I have not tried them out.
But maybe someone here has a far better idea for us all, hopefully! I have heard that there are very expensive chargers who have better functionality, maybe someone here can mention one in passing!
Best wishes
Andy
PS. My own experiences with Panasonic cells with regard to 3 bike batteries, was that they lost their charge VERY slowly, but as the BMS has also an effect, so that may be more to do with a good BMS......I simply don't know either way for certain....
Yes I do, and its far cheaper than I thought, though postage needs to be added.
Also, be careful of the connector, center is positive if I remember correctly:-
Home :: Accessories :: 0V Recovery Charger
Use this to recover your battery if it has not been used or charged over a long duration of time you only need to use this charger one time and then a normal charger can be used The 0V charger will only recover a battery with voltage from 22V to 27V cut off voltage You should measure the voltage...
starkdrive.bike
Modern Digital meters and much older "needle" meters differ completely in the way they show polarity, which may mean an expensive error!!
Remember, Digital meters are "more sensible" in that matter! Provided you have the red lead in the plus socket, and the black in the common, a positive indication means that the leads are on their own polarity.
A negative indication simply means they are reversed.
A needle meter shows the complete opposite!!!!!!
If your battery has another connectorthan the one shown, you need to get an adapter cable made up, or open the batter y up (if you are electrically capable or trained) and using an adapter with just crocodile clips, attach to the main battery wires, observing correct polarity of course!
Doing this wrongly can be possibly quite dangerous at best!
Never trifle with a Li-ion battery as an amateur, they can catch fire! And they are difficult to extinguish.
Best of luck.
Andy
PS. Although what they say in the info is partially true, the 0 Volt Charger can always be used, useful for anyone whose charger is defective, for example, as once the battery is "recovered" it charges just like any other charger!!
It seems that they only have continental power cables, so a simply adapter must be bought for the UK, or the plug changed!
Thank you Andy. I've always wondered what you were referring to whenever you've mentioned a "zero volt charger" in the past.Yes I do, and its far cheaper than I thought, though postage needs to be added.
Also, be careful of the connector, center is positive if I remember correctly:-
Home :: Accessories :: 0V Recovery Charger
Use this to recover your battery if it has not been used or charged over a long duration of time you only need to use this charger one time and then a normal charger can be used The 0V charger will only recover a battery with voltage from 22V to 27V cut off voltage You should measure the voltage...
Without any additional information, my cynicism leads me to believe that it's nothing more than a regular CC/CV power supply, although I could well be wrong. Do you (or anybody else) know any more details about the charger that aren't shown in the page linked to?
Basically its a normal charger with an extra circuit/program (nowadays!), that allows a charge to take place at a far lower voltage and current than normal....
I have actually used the exact same one they still sell, it was lent to me by Stark, as I was one of many early bike deliveries, that "wandered" around in Europe for months.
My bike was "underway" for 4 months, till the battery was "un-chargeable" with the normal charger!
The battery took about 10 normal charges/cycles till it achieved full capacity.
regards
Andy
Hi,
Many thanks for the replies. I have stopped kicking myself but a lesson learned!
I am going to buy a voltage meter just now, so here's hoping!
I got it recelled from ebikebatteries.com. I have found them to be an excellent company ( I don't get commission!)
Many thanks for the replies. I have stopped kicking myself but a lesson learned!
I am going to buy a voltage meter just now, so here's hoping!
I got it recelled from ebikebatteries.com. I have found them to be an excellent company ( I don't get commission!)
That's good news, I'm sure Jimmy will be able to assist you if you don't fancy working on the battery yourself.
There's no way that charger can work on a normal ebike battery with a BMS. When any cell goes below 2.5v, the BMS shuts off the charge port, so no clever charger can get anything through it.
If your battery won't charge, the first thing you do is measure the voltages on the charger jack and the battery's charge socket. Those two voltages will tell you where to look for the solution.
If eiether show 0v, yu should be looking for a blown fuse or wring issue.
If the charger shows full voltage, it's not likely to be causing any problems.
If the battery shows more than 0v and less than 20v, the BMS is switched off, so you have to open the battery and measure the cell voltages to find out why.
If you need to charge individual cells or groups, you can use a lab power supply, which can do everything you need regarding charging ebike batteries and it'll cost much less than that one above. This is the one I use. You can charge just about anything with it.
1PC Adjustable Digital DC Power Supply for GOPHERT NPS-1602 Switching CPS-6003II | eBay
L Operation Frequency Range: 45 – 65HZ. l Efficiency (220Vac/full load): ≥ 87%. l Full Load Input Current (220Vac): ≤ 1.4A. l No Load Input Current(220V): ≤ 80mA. Load Regulation (0-100%): ≤ 30mV. l Output Current Range: 0 – 3A.
www.ebay.co.uk
I was going to say that if a BMS is preventing charging due to a low voltage condition, there's no device on earth that will allow charging through the normal charging port, but VFR beat me to it.
I'm almost certain that the charger linked to is just an extortionately priced CC/CV power supply. I feel sorry for anyone who has been suckered into buying it.
You mentioned "If the battery shows more than 0v and less than 20v, the BMS is switched off, so you have to open the battery and measure the cell voltages to find out why." According to Texas Instruments, it is already too late at 20 volts, the battery is already damaged at these values, time to re-cell probably!There's no way that charger can work on a normal ebike battery with a BMS. When any cell goes below 2.5v, the BMS shuts off the charge port, so no clever charger can get anything through it.
If your battery won't charge, the first thing you do is measure the voltages on the charger jack and the battery's charge socket. Those two voltages will tell you where to look for the solution.
If eiether show 0v, yu should be looking for a blown fuse or wring issue.
If the charger shows full voltage, it's not likely to be causing any problems.
If the battery shows more than 0v and less than 20v, the BMS is switched off, so you have to open the battery and measure the cell voltages to find out why.
If you need to charge individual cells or groups, you can use a lab power supply, which can do everything you need regarding charging ebike batteries and it'll cost much less than that one above. This is the one I use. You can charge just about anything with it.
1PC Adjustable Digital DC Power Supply for GOPHERT NPS-1602 Switching CPS-6003II | eBay
L Operation Frequency Range: 45 – 65HZ. l Efficiency (220Vac/full load): ≥ 87%. l Full Load Input Current (220Vac): ≤ 1.4A. l No Load Input Current(220V): ≤ 80mA. Load Regulation (0-100%): ≤ 30mV. l Output Current Range: 0 – 3A.www.ebay.co.uk
According to TI, in such a case of extreme low voltage of 2.4 volts or less per cell, a non reversible reaction takes place inside the battery. So the true lowest voltage acceptable for recovery, must be somewhat higher than 2.4 volts per cell, or 24 volts for a 36 volt battery!
Leaving some room for differences between cells, which also demands a higher voltage, for safety and reasons of recovery, must be assumed.
So the 20 volts you mention, is well within the zone of permanent damage to each and every cell, so it really is completely irrelevant if the BMS turns itself off as you claim! The damage has been long done to the cells!
My first battery, the one that came with the bike, would not charge from the standard charger and Stark sent me, on loan, a 0 Volt Charger.
He only had one at that time for such problems with delayed deliveries, now he sells them!
In my case, it charged immediately and recovered the battery, allowing the standard charger to work again, which it still does. I assume that my battery was therefore "above" 24 volts, or 2.4 volts on each cell still, as the battery has gone from strength to strength in use.
Sadly, I did not attempt to measure the battery voltage before charging, so at what level it was I cannot say, only that my normal charger would not charge it, and after the 0 volt charger had done its work, the normal charger worked perfectly and still does!!
Stark told me that the standard charger would NOT charge the battery if it went under 29.2 volts, if I remember correctly, its almost 3 years ago!
But I carefully observed what the 0 volt charger did, just for my own information, and its "almost" magic and very clever, but certainly not difficult!
If I ever hear of another battery in this state, I do believe that I could recover it without such a charger now, knowing what I know, and without even opening the battery.
But I promised Stark, to NOT divulge how it works, as its covered in the supplied document quite well, assuming that you are are an electronics "buff"!
But it does work!
I would imagine that any good bike shop would/should offer customers such a service on such a "down" battery, but the bad ones will probably simply try to sell a new, or to re-cell a battery.....
Trick question:- How to tell a good bike shop from a bad e-bike shop?
Answer, ask them if they have 0 Volt Chargers available for use on batteries that do not charge anymore...and If the answer is NO, find a better shop!!
Guessing only, but probably a great number of e-bike batteries have this problem each and every year, sadly, simply because the customer has treated the battery badly...and to a lack of good information from the suppliers and manufacturers...I have seen it over the years with Laptop batteries, exactly the same problems.
I fairly found an interesting dissertation from Texas Instruments about Li-ion batteries, with one particular sentence, supporting my own personal view of looking after Li-ion batteries.
I will underline that sentence for you below in these few paragraphs:-
LI-ION: HOW CELLS ARE DAMAGED
The biggest problem with the Li-Ion battery is the ease with which it can be damaged during use:- The Li-Ion battery carries a very large amount of energy in a small package. Combined with the fact that the internal resistance is fairly high, you have the potential for a very dangerous product:- If the cell is accidentally shorted, it could get hot enough to burn a user (and possibly explode).
The makers of Li-Ion cells handle the explosion threat by designing the case of the cell so that it will "die with honor", and not explode in some ones pants pocket if the battery hits their car keys. More importantly, the actual battery terminals are simply never allowed to reach the outside world.
The only manufacturer presently shipping Li-Ion batteries for consumer products does not sell single cells, only battery packs (Possibly a bit outdated).
Contained within the pack is circuitry that isolates the battery power leads from the outside world if excessive current is sensed, preventing battery damage and protecting the user.
Another easy way to destroy a Li-Ion battery is by discharging it too far. The Li-Ion cells should never be allowed to drop below about 2.4V, or an internal chemical reaction will occur where one of the battery electrodes can oxidize (corrode) through a process which cannot be reversed by recharging.
If this occurs, battery capacity will be lost(and the cell may be completely destroyed).
A similar process will occur if an Li-Ion cell is charged to too high of a voltage. If current is continually forced into a fully charged cell, internal corrosion can take place which will reduce cell capacity (possibly completely). For this reason, Li-Ion cells cannot be trickle charged for extended time periods without cutting off the current when full charge is reached. Sustained charge currents (even a few μA) can damage the cell if allowed to run continuously.
This "few μA" are exactly what many reasonably priced chargers still supply, in spite of the LED for full charge, showing green. They "trickle Charge", easily measured with simple equipment!
It is the reason that most chargers should never be left on charge, once the LED goes green. A point that I have tried to make here on pedelec on several occasions, to little or no effect apparently!
Furthermore, high current discharge rates reduce battery capacity, as do high charge rates.
Both should be avoided.
Andy
PS. I forgot to mention lifespan, this is from Wiki and I feel it explains a lot about the huge differences between some batteries:-
Variability
A 2015 study by Andreas Gutsch of the Karlsruhe Institute of Technology found that lithium-ion battery lifespan could vary by a factor of five, with some Li-ion cells losing 30% of their capacity after 1,000 cycles, and others having better capacity after 5,000 cycles. The study also found that safety standards for some batteries were not met. For stationary energy storage it was estimated that batteries with lifespans of at least 3,000 cycles were needed for profitable operation.
I had to laugh when I saw this, as I always estimated worse case, people leaving the charger on far too long, would be 2,000 to 2,500 charge cycles, where I myself got drastically more than that. Now I see that method of mine, actually supported IN PRINT!
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The fact it took 10 charges as you said to achieve full capacity shows that the so called 0v charger isn't anything special, all it is doing is raising the low cell voltage a little but can't balance fully.
In most cases of low cell voltage opening the battery and charging via the BMS sense leads or direct to the cell group is the way to go, to fully balance a battery in one go.
Raise the voltage of the low one to match the others give or take 0.01 or 0.02v and then allow the balance charger to do it's job in one go.
In most cases of low cell voltage opening the battery and charging via the BMS sense leads or direct to the cell group is the way to go, to fully balance a battery in one go.
Raise the voltage of the low one to match the others give or take 0.01 or 0.02v and then allow the balance charger to do it's job in one go.
How many times do I have to tell you not to take stuff out of context from the internet and paste it here, when you don't understand its relevance. Again you're just confusing things.
Some of us work with batteries nearly every day, and we know how they work. You don't need to try and educate us. If you spent more time actually stripping down batteries and measuring them, you'd get a much better understanding of how they work than by doing internet research.
When you get between 0v and 20v on the charge port, it's because the BMS has shut off. The voltage is completely independent of the cell-pack voltage. That's why you have to open the battery to find out what's wrong. You might have a perfectly healthy cell-pack, but the balance lead connector might be half out or one of the wires adrift. Only measurements will tell you what's wrong and what you have to do, not stupid irrelevant stuff you find on the internet.
It was a brand new battery, in a brand new bike.
I have noticed with other new batteries that they do not give their best capacity when brand new, to me its normal business.
Many would not even notice!
Apparently I did not make that fully clear, as it came with the bike when new, but the bike was not delivered immediately, and with several others, according to Stark, made some uneventful and pointless journeys around Europe for some months.
You misunderstand how a 0 Volt Charger works completely.....A vivid imagination is a wonderful thing!!
All a 0 Volt Charger does is to charge the battery in a special way, to bring it above the normal charger cut off value, generally around 30 volts. Nothing more, nothing less.
Then the charger simply works as a normal charger.
In my case, I wanted to see that my own (hereto UNUSED) charger was in a good working order, so I only had the 0 volt charger "on" for a relatively short time, and I tested with my charger, and the second time I tested, my charger took over charging, and has done ever since....I simply wanted to make sure that mine was good!
Let me state once and for all, once the special charger has brought the battery above the cutoff values IT WORKS THE SAME AS A NORMAL CHARGER!
I would guess that my battery was not down below 25 volts, which would tend to bring more problems with actual cell damage, according to Texas Instruments and other reliable technical sources.
The BMS will not even notice this,and certainly no need to open the battery and charging individual banks of cells, but this maybe is partly because I have really good quality Panasonic cells in all my batteries, which have been sorted by the manufacturer, to be sold in blocks of very similar in spec, to battery builders. This plays a huge role in reliability and capacity.
Some battery builders in the UK apparently buy the rejects from manufacturers for next to nothing, build batteries and sell them, batteries that will fail far earlier, batteries that the BMS is probably very hard put to keep things stable.....Problem batteries! I would myself not accept the no-name junk cells that I have heard about and see being sold on ebay....
Maybe you should buy one and test it out, it may save you opening up and fiddling around inside many batteries. Only a test will tell.
I do believe that up to now, I am the only person on Pedelec with true first hand experience of using a 0 volt chargers.....
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