Whyte Cambridge 2018 - Will this bottom bracket work with TongSheng TSDZ2?

[Chees]

Hi all! This is my first post and I'm an aspiring converter after having my Trek electric bike stolen earlier this year.

I'd love some advice - will I be able to fit a Tong Sheng TSDZ2 motor to this bottom bracket (on a Whyte Cambridge 2018 Hybrid)? AFAIK it's threaded and 68mm so those dimensions are fine. But it seems the bottom part is quite thick and the internal cables are routed out from in there. Is there enough space between the bottom bracket and the motor to get through? I couldn't find those dimensions anywhere.

Thanks in advance for your help! Fingers crossed this cheap second hand bike I bought would be able to be a donor, otherwise I may have to sell it on and find another.

 

[peter.c]

With the cables exiting like that no it will not fit cables run surface outside the frame and plastic removed possible but not a certainty

 

[Chees]

With the cables exiting like that no it will not fit cables run surface outside the frame and plastic removed possible but not a certainty

Though thanks for answering!

Do you happen to know what the space is between the BB part and the motor part are on the TongSheng?

 

[peter.c]

Sorry do not know the measurement it will not even fit with a normal gear cable under the bb had to reroute this one

 

[Chees]

Interesting... pretty much all bikes have cables routing under there though, right - so it seems like a necessity when fitting this motor.

 

[peter.c]

The gap on the bafang is just enough for the thinnest outer cable but a reroute or outer replacement is often required but the plastic clip has to go

 

[Nealh]

Bafang BB clearance is about 6mm, Tongsheng I believe is less.

 

[vfr400]

Why would you want to fit such a motor, when a rear hub-motor would be cheaper, more reliable, more user-friendly and have lower running costs?

 

[MontyPAS]

Why would you want to fit such a motor, when a rear hub-motor would be cheaper, more reliable, more user-friendly and have lower running costs?

Either a hub motor or a BBS02. The tongsheng is a poor performer. The factory firmware is pants. Personally I would avoid the TSDZ2

 

[Nealh]

Hub motor all day long for me simply for their reliability, my experiences with kit mid drives shows that reliability wise hubs are far superior.

 

[MontyPAS]

Hub motor all day long for me simply for their reliability, my experiences with kit mid drives shows that reliability wise hubs are far superior.

Must admit my winter hack is Yose hub powered and has proved pretty reliable.
Saying that I do prefer a mid drive, power delivery on my 750w BBS02 is superb!
Got a BBSHD that will get some use once the weather gets better down here in Cornwall.
Thats not to say that the BBSHD will fail in poor weather....... just consider the Yose expendable for a winter season hack bike!

 

[Nealh]

My Bafang cst coming up to six years and 8k miles, it has been faultless pretty much, just a worn bearing to change. The AKM is about 4.5years now and again been faultless.
Two BBS controllers and two GSM's failed and altogether pretty poor and less then half the mileage the Bafang.

 

[Chees]

Interesting thoughts on the mid vs hub. I wanted to go mid because my old (stolen) bike was a mid drive (bosch) and I liked the ride over the hub drive bikes that I've tried. I think the key aspect was that torque sensed pedal assist and applying power before the gears was more intuitive to me since it's basically just like I'm a stronger pedaler. Tongsheng seemed to fit this mould and reviews seemed to be good, though it seems opinions differ.

I am considering a rear hub now though after seeing that many bikes aren't suitable for a mid mount.

My plan was to convert the current second hand bike, and then move my conversion to a new bike next year when my cycle-to-work plan is available again and I can get a new bike. It does makes sense to go for something reliable and easily compatible so I don't have issues later when I want to move the kit to a new bike. Is it possible to do a sensible setup with torque sensor as well?

 

[Nealh]

There are torque sensor controller kits for hub motors on AliExp, BMSBattery , Woosh sell them and Wisper have TS hub bikes the theory is the same the harder you pedal the more the bike delivers. Never ridden a TS hub bike or kit so can't tell you how they ride or feel.
Main issue is should a controller fail then a replacement will be harder to find though one can see replacement's on AliExp for one brand.

 

[vfr400]

Interesting thoughts on the mid vs hub. I wanted to go mid because my old (stolen) bike was a mid drive (bosch) and I liked the ride over the hub drive bikes that I've tried. I think the key aspect was that torque sensed pedal assist and applying power before the gears was more intuitive to me since it's basically just like I'm a stronger pedaler. Tongsheng seemed to fit this mould and reviews seemed to be good, though it seems opinions differ.

I am considering a rear hub now though after seeing that many bikes aren't suitable for a mid mount.

My plan was to convert the current second hand bike, and then move my conversion to a new bike next year when my cycle-to-work plan is available again and I can get a new bike. It does makes sense to go for something reliable and easily compatible so I don't have issues later when I want to move the kit to a new bike. Is it possible to do a sensible setup with torque sensor as well?

It comes down to whether you want a bike that feels intuitive or whether you want one where you can get the perfect balance between pedal effort and motor help. IMHO people are controlled by their paradigms instead of thinking logically and objectively.

It's the control system that often lets down hub-motored bikes. In the past, they were pretty crappy, with long delays between pedalling and motor power and with the motor running on after stopping pedalling. You can still buy bikes like that. Also, they typically had a fierce start up because of the speed control algorithms. Modern controllers, whether speed control or current control, have sorted most of that. My recommandation is a KT controller, which has a very fast response and current control.

These torque control systems give more precise control of power, which is very useful for off-road riding, where your power needs constant adjustment, but that has absolutely no advantage when riding on the road at a constant speed, which is where it's disadvantages start to show, in that have to pedal with a particular pedal effort to maintain a particular speed. On the other hand, a cadence sensor system with current control is pretty well useless for serious off-road stuff. A throttle would help a lot, but it's an additional control to have to think about while doing jiggery pokery. On the road, you can pedal as hard or as easy as you want by adjusting the motor's power to suit.

This is a comparison between the human interraction between rider and motor, but there are other considerations. The crank motor wins again for off-road due to it's centralised mass and lower rotational inertia, but that's no advantage on the road either. Then, when it comes to virtually all the other characteristics, like initial cost, running costs, reliability, durability, dependability, comfort, maintainability, etc., the hub motor wins. Check-mate!

As a couple of us keep saying, if you want an electric bike that feels like a normal non-electric bike, the ultimate one is a non-electric bike. This is the paradigm you have to break.

Think about driving a car. You don't have to press the pedal with max pressure to go maximum speed or get maximum power, and half as hard as you can to get normal power, and not hard at all to get low power. The force is nearly constant. It's the distance that you move it that controls the power. Would you want your car to be changed like that? It would be much more intuitive.

 

[ChuckingFeet]

VFR , that's a superb summation of the situation , expect to be pestered for tips as I build my super-commuter next year .My Motus will return to what I got it for , long rides into the Peak District where the CD works really well, no doubt you will tell me that a 48v hub will do just as well LOL .
Meanwhile hope you all have a Happy New Year given our restricted circumstances

 

[Chees]

It comes down to whether you want a bike that feels intuitive or whether you want one where you can get the perfect balance between pedal effort and motor help. IMHO people are controlled by their paradigms instead of thinking logically and objectively.

It's the control system that often lets down hub-motored bikes. In the past, they were pretty crappy, with long delays between pedalling and motor power and with the motor running on after stopping pedalling. You can still buy bikes like that. Also, they typically had a fierce start up because of the speed control algorithms. Modern controllers, whether speed control or current control, have sorted most of that. My recommandation is a KT controller, which has a very fast response and current control.

These torque control systems give more precise control of power, which is very useful for off-road riding, where your power needs constant adjustment, but that has absolutely no advantage when riding on the road at a constant speed, which is where it's disadvantages start to show, in that have to pedal with a particular pedal effort to maintain a particular speed. On the other hand, a cadence sensor system with current control is pretty well useless for serious off-road stuff. A throttle would help a lot, but it's an additional control to have to think about while doing jiggery pokery. On the road, you can pedal as hard or as easy as you want by adjusting the motor's power to suit.

This is a comparison between the human interraction between rider and motor, but there are other considerations. The crank motor wins again for off-road due to it's centralised mass and lower rotational inertia, but that's no advantage on the road either. Then, when it comes to virtually all the other characteristics, like initial cost, running costs, reliability, durability, dependability, comfort, maintainability, etc., the hub motor wins. Check-mate!

As a couple of us keep saying, if you want an electric bike that feels like a normal non-electric bike, the ultimate one is a non-electric bike. This is the paradigm you have to break.

Think about driving a car. You don't have to press the pedal with max pressure to go maximum speed or get maximum power, and half as hard as you can to get normal power, and not hard at all to get low power. The force is nearly constant. It's the distance that you move it that controls the power. Would you want your car to be changed like that? It would be much more intuitive.

I get that - and in fact what I want from a bike with pedals is for it to ride like a bike, something I enjoy doing. My key requirements are that I want to be able to tow/carry my toddlers and go farther. So it's either I become superhumanly fit with a regular bike, or try to get some electric assist which helps me achieve more while maintaining the ride experience that I value. I also love riding motorcycles, so differentiating more from the motorcycle experience is also great.

Can you expand more on the 'perfect balance of pedal effort and motor help' you mentioned? I was under the impression that you can choose this very easily with torque sensor systems as it's usually a multiplier of input effort. This is usually up to 300% by default but it appears you can have 20 gradations and pretty much any multiplier up to the limit of the motor if you use the opensource firmware for the TongSheng. This in conjunction with the gears would cover pretty much everything right? How is this managed on a well set up hub system, and what is the perfect balance that you seek?

It sounds like if I get a torque sensor with a hub motor, I could get the best of both worlds; the good control system but with the other advantages of hub motors you listed. I just don't know how a torque sensor hub system feels: I originally wondered how torque at the crank translates to speed at the wheel when you've also got varying gears to contend with in between but recently found out that there are motors with a torque sensor in the hub so that's less of a mind bender for me.

 

[Nealh]

As a couple of us keep saying, if you want an electric bike that feels like a normal non-electric bike, the ultimate one is a non-electric bike. This is the paradigm you have to break.

Afaik you and I are the only two who have mentioned or said this, though I may be mistaken. So many keep saying that TS is akin to a normal bike, it gets to a point that they must be thick or stupid in saying so. It gets to a point they just reprint what they believe trying to convince others they are right.

Having TS bike is nothing like a normal push bike, try pushing the pedals on a pushbike and see if you get up to 300% of extra power ??????????????
Any bike that gives added assist is an assisted electric bike end of story.

When I rode my brothers TS bike I could wizz up hills with some good effort at speeds many couldn't propel a push bike along on level terrain for any given time or distance, the two simply don't compare.

 

[Chees]

Afaik you and I are the only two who have mentioned or said this, though I may be mistaken. So many keep saying that TS is akin to a normal bike, it gets to a point that they must be thick or stupid in saying so. It gets to a point they just reprint what they believe trying to convince others they are right.

Having TS bike is nothing like a normal push bike, try pushing the pedals on a pushbike and see if you get up to 300% of extra power ??????????????
Any bike that gives added assist is an assisted electric bike end of story.

When I rode my brothers TS bike I could wizz up hills with some good effort at speeds many couldn't propel a push bike along on level terrain for any given time or distance, the two simply don't compare.

I'm not trying to convince anyone here, just sharing my experiences and also trying to learn from you all who are much more experienced. I haven't been here long enough and tried enough pedelecs to know what I would believe long term I've only ridden a bosch mid drive, a promovec rear hub drive with speed sensor and the jump/lime hire bikes - all legal powers and no throttle. At the same time I don't see how people repeating what they believe shows that they are thick or stupid. Maybe I haven't seen the cult yet?

If you're interested, to help see those people's point of view and why people keep saying a TS bike is similar to a normal push bike, I think the key is that the control systems are most similar. Sure, you're going to feel the extra assist, but to generally control the bike, you modulate exactly the same things in the same way you would on a regular one. Absolutely it's still an assisted electric bike, I don't think anyone would deny that.

I'm not yet familiar with all the control systems in use, but it sounds as if the state of the art for hub drives is some somewhere beyond what I have personally tried so I'm now doing the research to figure out where I would head for my conversion given that it's most likely going to be rear hub drive.

 

[vfr400]

Can you expand more on the 'perfect balance of pedal effort and motor help' you mentioned? I was under the impression that you can choose this very easily with torque sensor systems as it's usually a multiplier of input effort.

You said it yourself. with a Bosch-type system, the amount of power you get from the motor depends on how hard you pedal, so if you want more power, you have to pedal harder.

With a cadence current control system, you can either choose the amount of assistance you want and then pedal with whatever effort you want, or you can decide how fast you want to go and pedal with the effort you choose and adjust the power to get that speed. Basically, you can decide how hard you want to pedal and then adjust the power to get the speed or amount of assistance you want - turn it up when the going gets tough and turn it down when it's easier.

Examples:
1. You want to go out for long ride to get plenty of excercise without killing yourself. Set level 1 and pedal at a comfortable workout rate. If at any time you struggle with that assistance, like encountering a steep hill, open the throttle to get whatever you need until things get back to normal. At the end of the journey, you realised that you've overdone it. You still have 5 miles to get home, but you're completely knackered. Turn the power up and air-pedal.

2. You're knackered from yesterday's long ride, where you overdid it a bit to try and improve your fitness, but you want to ride your bike to work. Set the power to whatever you need and air-peda or pedal a bit harder if you feel up to it.

3. You fell off your bike yesterday, bashed your hip, now it hurts to put in any effort. Set whatever power you need and air-pedal.

4. You want to go for a tortuous ride to build up your fitness and stamina. Select level 0 and go for it.

5. You're a normally fit and active bike rider doing 50 mile rides on a road bike over hilly terrain, when inixplicably your lungs fill up with blood clots, so even a walk from the living room to the kitchen gets you gasping, but you need to run some errands. Set the throttle to independent and use your bike as a moped. As you start to recover, you start with air pedalling, then test bit by bit how much effort you can put in, knowing that the bike will always bail you out if you overdo it. Eventually, you get back to normal fitness and can go on level one all the time again until lockdowns and crappy weather keep you housebound and your fitness goes down and your weight goes up. Then you have to pray for better conditions and start all over again in the spring - hopefully.