why is this even up for debate?

[WheezyRider]

You really are obsessed on this subject to a ridiculous degree and I suspect you are far too easily frightened when cycling,

I retired almost 32 years ago and immediately intensified my cycling to up to 5000 miles a year to keep fit. I'd bought a new car since I'd been in company cars, but that Fiat Tipo was little used. Most years I was only driving about 400 miles, only increasing that for three years while my distant father's age demanded some regular support from me.

When I sold that car at over 10 years old it had just passed 10,000 miles, but I immediately hit a problem with the new car I bought, since unlike the Fiat which could be left for up to four months unused, its battery would flatten in under three weeks.

The foregoing to show how almost all my road use has been cycling for 30 of the 32 years, all in South London and the immediate southern Home Counties which of course have been packed with traffic thoughout.

I can barely recollect ever having drivers give me even a metre, let alone 1.5 metres passing space. They cant since the roads are mostly not wide enough, are often lined with parked cars and road islands are so frequent,. but they still passed just the same usually with a foot or two space. Trucks and buses were often closer due to their width, but none ever touched the mirror that stuck out from my right handlebar by about 5 inches.

That didn't worry me, despite having to deal with some of the worst tooth rattling road conditions in this country and which i'm still putting up with while driving. I do remember just once when a truck driver was so close at speed at a pinch point that it made me jump, but immediately reflecting that he hadn't touched my mirror I realised he'd actually been near a foot away, so he knew what he was doing.

As for potholes and other road imperfections, those are mine to deal with, keeping my eye out for them and doing whatever was necessary, which certainly wasn't suddenly swerving into the path of an overtaking vehicle. I always knew where they were due to my mirror and using it, something far too few cyclists have or do. A little sample of our wonderful road conditions below, Hesiers Hill Road:

View attachment 47849

So I don't recognise the land of cycling terror you portray. Yes some drivers pass very close, but in 70 years of cycling none have ever hit me, showing they all knew what they were doing well enough. As for what's in my way, potholes and the many sunken drains, they are for me to deal with, which from moderate speeds is easy, since my cycling is my responsibility. I don't expect drivers to do my bike riding as well as their own driving.
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I don't think it's something I'm obsessed with and I don't think I'm someone who is easily frightened.

I see the danger and I would like the risks to be minimised. After incidents that have happened to me and friends of mine, I just know what can happen all too easily and the awful consequences.

In addition, things seem to have got a lot worse in recent years. Years ago, I never had people leaning out of windows to hurl abuse at me, spit at me or even throw things at me for no reason other than for being on a bike. But now it occurs all too frequently. I think cars have got wider, people are generally more impatient, angry and aggressive than they used to be, they are distracted on phones and there is generally a lot more traffic on our roads now.

At the end of the day, we can disagree and debate on our relative levels of acceptable risk, but what matters is the bigger picture - getting more people cycling. Your description of a level of acceptable risk is such that I cannot see it as being an attractive advertisement to someone thinking about riding a bike - especially for those with young children, the elderly and most women.

The thought of buses and HGVs roaring past at less than a foot from you (which you describe as normal) will make most give up the idea of cycling immediately.

Cycling needs to be a relaxing and enjoyable activity. If you are constantly in a state of fear and anxiety about every car that comes up behind you, wondering whether they are going to treat you with due respect, or be distracted on a phone and not see you, or even maliciously try to intimidate you, it is neither relaxing or enjoyable.

If you are ok cycling along, trusting in just your experience and your faith in others to look after you, then fine for you. But please do not expect the vast majority of people to be happy with this.

We have spent a lot of time debating this now and I don't think there's much more to add. I think people who read this thread will see that your ideas of how cycling should be are not fit for mass application unless bikes significantly outnumber cars on the road, motorised traffic is seriously speed limited and there is an attitude shift in the mentality of drivers towards cyclists.

So unless some new and significant points are raised, that's where I'm gong to leave this thread.

 

[flecc]

In addition, things seem to have got a lot worse in recent years. Years ago, I never had people leaning out of windows to hurl abuse at me, spit at me or even throw things at me for no reason other than for being on a bike. But now it occurs all too frequently.

If that is the case where you are, you have my sympathy. There was a time long ago when it was like that here, but not now. Verbal abuse is non existent, road space bullying very rare, cyclists and especially pedestrians are treated well, though the former rarely get 1.5 metre passes because the space simply doesn't exist to make it possible. It doesn't help that they reject even the space they are given, prefering to ride into confined space with other vehicles at over 20 mph, ignoring all warning signs not to do it.

At the end of the day, we can disagree and debate on our relative levels of acceptable risk, but what matters is the bigger picture - getting more people cycling. Your description of a level of acceptable risk is such that I cannot see it as being an attractive advertisement to someone thinking about riding a bike - especially for those with young children, the elderly and most women.

Getting more cycling is the target of most governments, including ours. I dont care whether they do or not, it's none of my business. The reason I quoted the 50 million driving licences that our 68 millions have wasn't what you misunderstood it as. I was simply illustrating that almost all who could drive have or are gaining a full licence, showing that motorised is how they want to travel, not cycling.

The thought of buses and HGVs roaring past at less than a foot from you (which you describe as normal) will make most give up the idea of cycling immediately.

That is exaggeration. I mentioned one particular exception in the last 30 years, NOT normal, when a truck was probably a foot away, close enough to make me jump.

If you are constantly in a state of fear and anxiety about every car that comes up behind you - - - - - - - - - -

Cyclists are the slowest and therefore the most overtaken on the roads, so more than any other should have at least one effective rear view mirror, and learn how to use it well. Then they wouldn't have fear and anxiety about every car approaching from behind.

From when I fitted my first bike mirror many years ago, all the worries about late overtakes approaching bends, and left turns across my nose disappeared. I could easily see any drivers intentions by the trend of their approach from the rear and be ready to deal with it risk free.
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[egroover]

since fitting mirrors to all of my bikes a number of years ago, I couldn't be without them. Makes for a much more relaxing ride knowing I've got a chance to avoid a rear collision if the driver doesn't see me

 

[BazP]

I fail to see how seeing a speeding driver in my mirror would have any effect on how he passes me. I can hear cars approaching from behind and I’m usually about two feet from the kerb with nowhere to go other than up on the kerb. Even if I stopped he could still run over me. I try to avoid roads like the plague.

 

[egroover]

I fail to see how seeing a speeding driver in my mirror would have any effect on how he passes me. I can hear cars approaching from behind and I’m usually about two feet from the kerb with nowhere to go other than up on the kerb. Even if I stopped he could still run over me. I try to avoid roads like the plague.

2 foot from the kerb means that you've got 2 foot to move left if you see the driver heading straight for you. that could be towards a hedge, pavement etc that 2 foot could mean the difference between the car hitting you full on or you avoiding it completely.
You'll know this because to overtake you, the driver would slow down, and/or move towards the right side of the road some time before passing you...if you see neither of the above as the vehicle gets closer and closer, prepare to dive left at the last minute

 

[passionate off roader]

Just because you have been lucky doesn't mean it won't happen eventually.

If you see a cyclist taking the primary position when passing parked cars, WAIT. It's quite simple. That's all you have to do. When passing a parked car as a cyclist you need to give at least a door's width. I have been doored more times than I care to remember. So the cyclist has to take primary. This is an indication to any motorist behind - DANGER, please wait.

I'm saddened to see that you consider my post to be a rant at you. Please take it to heart what I have written and change your driving behaviour before you kill or injure someone by forcing your way past when there isn't space to do so safely.

THINK WHERE THE RIDER'S HEAD WILL BE IF THEY FALL OFF IN FRONT OF YOU.

As a courtesy, if a big queue is building behind a cyclist, they could chose to pull over and let cars pass when safe to do so, but if a driver is impatient it makes life difficult for all concerned.

What are the odds of the cyclist coming off his bike at the precise moment of an overtake? - negligible. Probably one in 2 or 3 million. Possibly more. Even wider odds that they happen to fall towards the car, and wider still that their head just happens to go under the wheels. You've got more chance of being struck by lightning.

 

[passionate off roader]

Lycra's are a law unto themselves and look down on any other types of cyclist , we are treated with the same distain as other vehicles.

That's true. They're not a bit friendly are they.

 

[WheezyRider]

What are the odds of the cyclist coming off his bike at the precise moment of an overtake? - negligible. Probably one in 2 or 3 million. Possibly more. Even wider odds that they happen to fall towards the car, and wider still that their head just happens to go under the wheels. You've got more chance of being struck by lightning.

Well, let's just hope it doesn't happen to you or someone your care about. Lightning does strike, and sometimes twice in the same place.

Over 100 people on bikes are killed every year, many more times that seriously injured. The car doesn't have to hit your head for the incident to change your life forever.

It has happened to me over the years, car doored or falling off due to ice/potholes etc - I was just lucky the car behind was able to stop in time on those occasions.

 

[WheezyRider]

That's true. They're not a bit friendly are they.

I don't think it's helpful to say anyone in Lycra conforms to a particular negative stereotype. In any group, of any people, you will come across good people and bad people - and good people just having a bad day.

 

[StuartsProjects]

I don't think it's helpful to say anyone in Lycra conforms to a particular negative stereotype.

I agree.

I did used to get laughed at by the Lycra crown from the members of the local cycling club way back in the 80s, but that was because I was really weird, the odd one out, wearing a helmet.

However, whilst there seems to be some critism of behaviour of the modern lycra wearers, its not a pattern I recognise these days, but then lycra wearers only represent a few percent of cycle riders these days.

 

[StuartsProjects]

It has happened to me over the years, car doored or falling off due to ice/potholes etc - I was just lucky the car behind was able to stop in time on those occasions.

Me too.

 

[I893469365902345609348566]

What are the odds of the cyclist coming off his bike at the precise moment of an overtake? - negligible. Probably one in 2 or 3 million. Possibly more. Even wider odds that they happen to fall towards the car, and wider still that their head just happens to go under the wheels. You've got more chance of being struck by lightning.

If you survive, it's no fun being a 1 in 2 or 3 million. Not including the badger, I've been that 1 in 2 or 3 million at least three times. Car collisions by bicycle and other highly unlikley, unpleasant and sometimes life threatening occurrences. Random isn't evenly distributed. It could be you and more than once.

 

[WheezyRider]

Something to think about for those reading this thread:

Abuse on the roads disproportionately deters women from cycling | Cycling UK

With fuel prices on the rise, rail strikes and a cost-of-living crisis, cycling is a great alternative for short journeys. Despite this, many women are put off getting in the saddle. Cycling UK’s digital communications and media officer Lauren Brooks considers why

www.cyclinguk.org

 

[richtea99]

What are the odds of the cyclist coming off his bike at the precise moment of an overtake? - negligible. Probably one in 2 or 3 million. Possibly more. Even wider odds that they happen to fall towards the car, and wider still that their head just happens to go under the wheels. You've got more chance of being struck by lightning.

I've had a cyclist falls off his bike INTO the road directly in front of my motorbike - approx 1-2 seconds ahead of me. They (we!) take a LOT of road space laid out, I promise.

It was on a motorcycle training ride on a national speed limit left-hand corner. I was following the centre line for the maximum view round the corner, and an old man (well, older than me!) was pedalling so slowly up the gentle incline that he stopped and fell into the road. I was already in the 'correct' position to ride round him (training works - hurray!). I turned around & went back to see if he was hurt. He was a bit sheepish, but OK, and said he'd just lost his balance.

It's never happened before or since, but since I've experienced it I'd suggest it's rather more than 1 in 2 to 3 million.

Actually running that cyclist over is a much lower chance though, agreed. It would need a clueless driver, plus an oncoming lorry / large vehicle taking the whole of the other side of the road up, giving no room to maneouvre.

 

[passionate off roader]

I don't think it's helpful to say anyone in Lycra conforms to a particular negative stereotype. In any group, of any people, you will come across good people and bad people - and good people just having a bad day.

Fair point. Let me re-phrase The one's I've come across don't seem very friendly, when compared to other cyclists.

 

[passionate off roader]

Something to think about for those reading this thread:

Abuse on the roads disproportionately deters women from cycling | Cycling UK

With fuel prices on the rise, rail strikes and a cost-of-living crisis, cycling is a great alternative for short journeys. Despite this, many women are put off getting in the saddle. Cycling UK’s digital communications and media officer Lauren Brooks considers why

www.cyclinguk.org

We set off at 8am and reached the dreaded stretch of road where we had been endangered previously. This stretch of road takes us less than nine minutes to cycle.

Hmm, I think I'd just find a different route. On the basis that I'd sooner be cautious and alive, than legally in the right but dead.

No brainer.

 

[sjpt]

Fair point. Let me re-phrase The one's I've come across don't seem very friendly, when compared to other cyclists.

Being friendly takes time, so impossible.

 

[passionate off roader]

Being friendly takes time, so impossible.

"Impossible"? - given that other cyclists pass the time of day, it's clearly not.

 

[I893469365902345609348566]

"Impossible"? - given that other cyclists pass the time of day, it's clearly not.

Perhaps the pain of lycra ripping hair out of their legs is too distracting? Or the shame of having super smooth legs (which they suspect you suspect) weighs too heavily on their minds?

 

[AndyBike]

super smooth legs

Smooth legs and lubricating their bits. Topic of conversation in both the porn industry and the cycling fraternity.