White-knuckle newbie

[Rainman]

Hi All,
I'm completely new to the whole Ebike thing so I thought I'd come here for some advice.
I'm an avid motorcyclist and mountain-biker and have been so for a number of years. I only occassionally ride my mountainbike on the road, and mostly only to get to where I'm going do my off-road riding. I work in central London and commute on my motorbike, I tour around Europe on it and generally any excuse I can find to ride my motorbike as my primary mode of travel then thats what I use. I'm also quite seriously into my sports cars and own some interesting 4-wheel transport and whilst thats not important at all I'm trying to paint a picture that hopefully illustrates that I'm a bit of a white-knuckle merchant and I enjoy going fast, but responsibly - I'm a member of IOM and also do track-days, etc, because that there is a time and place for going quick and UK roads are just not the place for such antics.
The issue I have is that some years ago I had cruciate ligament reconstruction done on my knee and whilst it's fine now and I can run and play football, etc, it does cause me a problem when cycling. I can't push and extend my dodgey knee to quite the same extent as my good knee and end up having the seat lower than is optimal, and when pushing-on uphill I mostly have to get out of the seat to use both legs efficiently - which in itself isn't very efficient. Worse still, last year I damaged the achillies tendon in both ankles and it's taken a very long time to heal and when I've tried to cycle it's just made it worse. It's ok on the flat but if I try and keep up with my mates when we're out for a ride I end up doing myself more harm than good.
So, I've been considering an Ebike to enable me to get out on a mountainbike and to take the sting out of the hard bits so I can continue to get some excercise and continue to be part of my social group of mountainbikers. But here's the thing ... seems to me that this is also an excellent opportunity to explore a new avenue of tomfoolery.
I recently sold my 2011 Specialized Camber Expert to a friend because I just couldn't ride without being in considerable discomfort and it seemed a shame to have it just collecting dust. I have another bike with is a much older 2004-ish Marin Mount Vision which I've deemed not worth selling so I've kept it.
Looking at most of the E-mountain bikes out there it seems that a lot are still focussed on the UK road legal specs but I can't help but feel that this might be a little pedestrian for my requirements. I've seem some 1000w kits which look like they could be a lot of fun but I'm also concerned about reliability and practicality. I have a full motorcycle license and in the past I've even built my own custom bikes which have needed type approval for road use, so I'm well aware of the implications processes required for such an equipped animal, should I end up briefly using it on the road.
I'm torn between going for a completely turn-key mountain bike (Haibike ???) which will be warranted and supported although might be a little lacking or fitting a solution to my existing bike, which whilst it is getting on in years has been upgraded over that time with no expense spared.

I recently popped into a specialist Ebike shop which sells kits and also complete bikes but they seemed hell-bent on selling a bike rather than a cheaper kit - the advice focussing on questionable maintenance and reliability of the kits when compared to the bike. I'm quite adept at doing my maintenance and repairs but at the same time I do get frustrated by continually having to tinker for no other reason than to support a poor solution.

I wondered if anyone had any experience of doing something similar and could offer some insight and comparison into the pitfalls of both avenues.

 

[Ferdinand]

IOM?

I can think of a lot of translations of that. My favourite would be a Bhuddist Superhero: I, Om.

The common one would be Institute of Management, or IAM with a typo.

Welcome.

Ferdinand

 

[Rainman]

IOM?

I can think of a lot of translations of that. My favourite would be a Bhuddist Superhero: I, Om.

The common one would be Institute of Management, or IAM with a typo.

Welcome.

Ferdinand

Apologies, it was a typo. I'm a member of the Institute of Advanced Motorists, not that it's really relevant.

 

[JohnCade]

You are clearly aware of the possible implications of using an overpowered pedelec on the road, and seem concerned about it. But there is no difference in using it on or off road in law. The only place it would be legal would be on private land where there is no right of public access.

There are several threads here about the difficulties of making such a bike road or off road legal. There’s also a long running thread about members using e MBs off road here which might be worth a read.

 

[soundwave]

just get a haibike and get a baeb dongle for it never been stopped on it once by the police and it can be removed in seconds anyway hit reset and bike back to default.

just keep to the 15mph limit on the road n will not have a problem

 

[Deleted member 4366]

If you know about bikes and have the practical skills, you'll be much happier building your own electric bike from a kit or other parts.

Those Marins are not easy to convert because of the frame shape. It would be better to start with a new frame that has a proper triangle.

 

[RobF]

Before you build your mega-watt contraption, I suggest you have a word with your mountain biking mates to see how it might be received.

Lots of hostility from mountain bikers towards ebikes, particularly over-powered ones.

Right or wrongly, push bike mountain bikers view ebikes as motorbikes and fear they could damage trails and lead to restrictions on their sport.

They may have a point with a 1,000w ebike, much less so with a standard power one.

Yes, you could just tell everyone who moans at you to get stuffed, but you would be riding an illegal bike so would be on the back foot in all respects.

Buy a legal bike and you are in a much stronger position, and much less likely to have serious problems with other riders.

 

[Rainman]

You are clearly aware of the possible implications of using an overpowered pedelec on the road, and seem concerned about it. But there is no difference in using it on or off road in law. The only place it would be legal would be on private land where there is no right of public access.

As explained, the bulk of my riding is off-road and indeed the facilities I use are private - in fact I pay for access to a couple of organised mountain bike parks and I have already cleared it with the operators that they are happy for me to use such a machine - all normal waivers and disclaimers in place.

On the issue of road use, if I decided that I did want to ride on the road at any point I've already been through the "type approval" process and had vehicles approved for daytime use only - whatever anyone says, it's not hard, just time consuming. The thing is that most people go into these projects without doing the legal homework and cry like a stuck pig at the first hurdle. As it happens, I'm quite happy to not use it on the road at all, but I'm pretty comfortable that if it comes to it then it's not a barrier for me.

 

[Rainman]

Before you build your mega-watt contraption, I suggest you have a word with your mountain biking mates to see how it might be received.

Lots of hostility from mountain bikers towards ebikes, particularly over-powered ones.

I've been discussing the prospect with my other moutainbike colleagues for almost a year now - it's only recently that I've decided to act on it. They have done nothing but encourage me since it was them they suggested it to me in the first place having tried a few bikes themselves.

Right or wrongly, push bike mountain bikers view ebikes as motorbikes and fear they could damage trails and lead to restrictions on their sport.

They may have a point with a 1,000w ebike, much less so with a standard power one.

I can see that point completely, but as with anything that the potential to be abused, it's the manner in which these things are used, not the items in question - I commute into London every day on a motorcycle and I see push bikes being abused to circumvent road signals, riding the wrong way up a one-way road, etc, several times a day - but that's a different debate. My point is that anything has the ability to be abused. I own a Nissan GT-R but I don't drive it at 193mph every day (in fact, ever) and try and achieve 0-60mph in under 3s every time I pull away from a set of lights. There is a huge responsibility on people that own this type of equipment, but as I said there is a time and a place for those things - I'm aware of that.

Yes, you could just tell everyone who moans at you to get stuffed, but you would be riding an illegal bike so would be on the back foot in all respects.

Buy a legal bike and you are in a much stronger position, and much less likely to have serious problems with other riders.

Legality simply isn't an issue.

 

[Rainman]

Last night I took a Haibike Xduro RC out for a test ride. I have to say that a road legal 250w with a 15mph cap was frustrating to say the least. As soon as you got over 15mph it was like hitting a wall. My nominal cruising speed would probably be another 5 or 6 mph higher, whether that be on the road or on certain types of trail. What is clear to me now is that a road legal bike for use on the road is not going to happen. So that's it really - I won't be using an Ebike on the road, period. My use of an Ebike will be exclusively off-road on private land. The road aspect just isn't for me - I just don't do enough road riding for it to be of any practical benefit.

 

[Ferdinand]

Looking forward to the piccie of the Pedelec GTR on a rack on the back of the Nissan GTR.

Best of luck with the project.

F

 

[RobF]

I have the same motor on my two bikes as on the Haibike you tried.

You could put a dongle on it, as I have on one of mine.

All the dongle does is remove the speed restriction, it doesn't add any power.

But it does mean you can pedal at faster speeds, if you are fit enough and have the appropriate gearing.

The motors are built for torque, not speed, so the amount of assistance declines sharply the faster you go.

The dongle makes my bike illegal, but at the risk of using weasely words, I think there is a difference between a derestricted, but legal power, bike and one with an illegally powered motor.

I don't want to derail your thread into another legal/illegal discussion.

But you should be aware 'private land' is no defence.

It has to be private land to which there is no public access, ie land which is fully fenced off.

Few of us own estates, let alone estates which are surrounded by a continuous fence.

So I think you will struggle to find somewhere to ride your over powered bike in a legal manner.

The car analogy doesn't quite work.

An over powered - and/or dongled - ebike is illegal even it's being ridden at walking pace.

 

[JohnCade]

[QUOTE=".

On the issue of road use, if I decided that I did want to ride on the road at any point I've already been through the "type approval" process and had vehicles approved for daytime use only - whatever anyone says, it's not hard, just time consuming. The thing is that most people go into these projects without doing the legal homework and cry like a stuck pig at the first hurdle. As it happens, I'm quite happy to not use it on the road at all, but I'm pretty comfortable that if it comes to it then it's not a barrier for me.[/QUOTE]

It’s not so easy with electric bikes which can be impossible to get approved. I suggest again that you do a search here because this topic has been done to death several times.

Years ago I had a trials bike without lights which I used on the road in daylight hours with an exempted MOT. I’m not even sure if that is allowed now thought it might be. But an overpowered e bike isn’t the same as a motor bike anyway because there is no category for it, so it is very hard to get it approved for use.

I am surprised that the owners of a mountain bike park would okay the use of a bike like that. The insurance issues are considerable, and if other members of the public were using it at the same time it would therefore be a public place and the use of the bike illegal. Whether its private land or not.

A proper e MTB is your best bet, and if you must go fast off road get a dongle. Still illegal but not so obvious.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I think there is a difference between a derestricted, but legal power, bike and one with an illegally powered motor.

That's a cracker! It made me laugh for ages. Don't worry, though, I won't be grassing you up if you promise not to grass on me.

 

[Rainman]

Guys, please, I thought this might happen but this isn't a debate about legality. I'm looking for suggestions for equipment options given my requirements on strictly private property - and those requirements are not based around a road legal 250w system. I've ridden a road legal system and it's definitely not for me, and that's really the end of it. I don't commute, go to the shops, or anything on a bicycle - I have other toys for those requirements. I might have initially hinted at extremely limited road use but I realise that this just isn't going to happen, ever, so we can move on from there.

There are many systems out there that fall outside of that spec and that's what I'm seeking guidance on. I'm still trying to assess whether I'm going benefit from a proven 'turn-key' system which is commercially available and warranted off-the-peg, or whether a kit of parts would be a better option.

I'm really not interested in the legal debate because, I promise you, it has absolutely no relevance to this requirement. I have access to copious amounts of strictly private land and at the risk of being rude I don't need to explain myself there.

So, if you've been using kits or bikes in excess of 250w and have some real world comparisons worth sharing I would really like to hear your comments.

 

[Rainman]

If you know about bikes and have the practical skills, you'll be much happier building your own electric bike from a kit or other parts.

Those Marins are not easy to convert because of the frame shape. It would be better to start with a new frame that has a proper triangle.

Thanks d8veh, duly noted and I shall keep that in mind - I'm quite happy to secure a different bike to start with, the Marin is just one I happen to have already.

 

[Wicky]

KTM have a high powered s-pedelec that you can buy if you can demonstrate it will be used purely on private land.

See Tom's post here: KTM egnition

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/ktm-corner.19044/page-2#post-239091

https://www.electricbike.com/ktm-egnition/

 

[Deleted member 4366]

If you're starting from the beginning, there's so much choice. You haven't given us any parameters to work on. What's the bike for? How heavy are you? What sort of terrain will you ride over? How fast do you want to go? How much do you want to spend?

 

[EddiePJ]

KTM have a high powered s-pedelec that you can buy if you can demonstrate it will be used purely on private land.

http://www.ktm-bikes.at/en/bikes/e-bike.html?action=bike_details&bike_id=62&cHash=83c1bd6a7314caa260aa47515b74f719

http://www.ktm-bikes.at/en/bikes/e-bike.html?action=bike_details&bike_id=65&cHash=028416e85b963807ec11f7a6c21e69b4

 

[soundwave]

or add a dongle to a 250w and same thing