Which motors don't feel like riding through treacle above 25kph?

Just curious having tried a few different motors recently. I tried a bike with an Active Line motor, specification and price to die for but just couldn't get past the annoyance that above 15mph/25kph the bike switched instantaneously from feeling like I had bionic legs to feeling like I was cycling through treacle. I tried an Active Line Plus bike that didn't have such a noticeable effect, and the shop assistant said he had a Yamaha that he didn't think had such a sharp cutoff. I read somewhere on this forum someone complaining that their STEPS motor did something similar. I read conflicting accounts of the Bosch Performance Line motor, which is frustrating given I was considering very expensive bike purchase that had one.

 

So it got me thinking, what happens at 16mph/26pmh? Does the motor continue to draw the same power it was using 1mph slower, or does it cut all power from the battery? Why the sudden feeling of hitting treacle, and are there any motors that don't provide this sensation? Are hub motors any better?

 

Most of my flat asphalt cycling is around 16-17mph so I need a bike that isn't going to keep cutting out and hit treacle just as I get up to cruising speed. Incidentally I need to be road legal so tampering with the electronics to bypass the restriction isn't an option for me. Finding a more subtle motor is.

My Crossfuse has an active line plus and definitely does not 'treacle' above 15mph. It is just like riding an ordinary bike - no noticeable resistance. My Carrera Crossfire (Rear hub bafang) was also good like that - except when it wasn't which was why I swapped it. But on that the treacle effect often happened well below 15mph.

Mike

Just curious having tried a few different motors recently. I tried a bike with an Active Line motor, specification and price to die for but just couldn't get past the annoyance that above 15mph/25kph the bike switched instantaneously from feeling like I had bionic legs to feeling like I was cycling through treacle. I tried an Active Line Plus bike that didn't have such a noticeable effect, and the shop assistant said he had a Yamaha that he didn't think had such a sharp cutoff. I read somewhere on this forum someone complaining that their STEPS motor did something similar. I read conflicting accounts of the Bosch Performance Line motor, which is frustrating given I was considering very expensive bike purchase that had one.

 

So it got me thinking, what happens at 16mph/26pmh? Does the motor continue to draw the same power it was using 1mph slower, or does it cut all power from the battery? Why the sudden feeling of hitting treacle, and are there any motors that don't provide this sensation? Are hub motors any better?

 

Most of my flat asphalt cycling is around 16-17mph so I need a bike that isn't going to keep cutting out and hit treacle just as I get up to cruising speed. Incidentally I need to be road legal so tampering with the electronics to bypass the restriction isn't an option for me. Finding a more subtle motor is.

Legal electrical assistance can only take place up to 15MPH. Above that speed, the assistance is stopped, and also power is removed from the motor.

Having motor assistance that goes beyond 15MPH, which the police will check for, if you are ever involved in any form of an accident, to possibly your detriment.

If you wish for a higher speed e-bike, the bike has to be properly registered and insured, with number plates.

My thoughts only, but probably as either a motorbike or a moped.

It would possibly be best to actually buy such an e-bike, built to be registered, rather than "change" a bike that was only designed for up to 15MPH.....

Apparently, many bikes have been altered to exceed the legal limits, one of the owners of such bikes, has recently "paid" for this by apparently having to sell his house to pay the damages after hitting a pedestrian on a Zebra crossing. He also lacked proper representation in court, which was his undoing, plus he did not take the "safe" option of stopping completely, as he should have done!

https://road.cc/content/news/262396-cyclist-found-partly-liable-crash-pedestrian-who-was-looking-her-mobile-phone

Do not forget, you can buy bike insurance, but whether the company pays out when you ride illegally in some proven way is not a given....which is a misunderstanding many seem to have!

Another person in the UK is waiting on his court case (spring 2020) after hitting and killing an old lady, while riding an e-bike, with apparently, a very high speed assistance.

He knew he was at fault as he left the injured woman lying in the road, dumped his bike some way away, and hoped he would not be found! But CCTV video along his route had taken good likenesses of him both before and after the accident, and the accident itself!

NO CHANCE.

I am guessing, but he is probably up for manslaughter. And really, who needs that?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7238430/woman-killed-dalston-kingsland-road-electric-bike/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6159191/Woman-56-killed-collision-E-bike.html

Even non e-bikes can get you into prison if someone is injured, the law is quite clear on that point:-

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/sep/18/cyclist-charlie-alliston-jailed-for-18-months-over-death-of-pedestrian

Its a personal choice what you do of course, just as long as you take responsibility for your own actions.

Have a good day and I hope this post helps you with your decision making.

Andy

Just to clarify - as I don't think the OP was asking for a cut-off point above 15mph. On the flat there is a seamless transition on my Crossfuse (activelineplus) from assistance to non-assistance. At 17mph on the flat it is very easy to pedal - or at 20mph. Uphill is different of course because you are lugging an unassisted 25k bike uphill as opposed to typically a 10kilo ordinary bike, but I'm sure you'd be happy with 15mph uphill.

Mike

Uphill is different of course because you are lugging an unassisted 25k bike uphill as opposed to typically a 10kilo ordinary bike, but I'm sure you'd be happy with 15mph uphill.

 

Agreed but I can't see anyone of us insisting on riding at over 15mph up a hill though.

Just to clarify - as I don't think the OP was asking for a cut-off point above 15mph. On the flat there is a seamless transition on my Crossfuse (activelineplus) from assistance to non-assistance. At 17mph on the flat it is very easy to pedal - or at 20mph. Uphill is different of course because you are lugging an unassisted 25k bike uphill as opposed to typically a 10kilo ordinary bike, but I'm sure you'd be happy with 15mph uphill.

Mike

 

Exactly. I don't want an illegal modded ebike. I want one with minimal to zero "treacling" at 16mph if it's possible. It sounds like the Bosch Active Plus would be acceptable to me; I wondered what other bikes also had no discernable added resistance at 16mph. I won't be cycling above 15mph on hills but if I got a flat section of road I don't want to be constantly looking at the speedo and having to ease off above 13mph to avoid hitting treacle at 15mph. Which was what I ended up doing on a recent test of a bike with the Active Line motor and found most unsettling.

 

Do hub motors behave in the same way or not, given they are better at freewheeling?

Exactly. I don't want an illegal modded ebike. I want one with minimal to zero "treacling" at 16mph if it's possible.

You are bound to feel some difference when the motor is turned off.

If you want a smoother transition, then lower the level of assist down to eco setting.

Some bikes like those fitted with the Fazua motor can offer smooth transition.

I tried a Cannondale Synapse Neo that has the active line motor and felt the same treacle affect.

Also power shut off at limit rather than tapering. Some call it the anchor effect.

I have now bought a Giant road E+ with the Yamaha motor this has no drag form the motor once the limit has been reached and also tapers the power off .

If you get a sudden and noticeable cut-off at say 15 or 16 mph, it means that you get good power at 15 mph. If you can't feel it, it's because power is being ramped down from a lower speed. I think I'd rather have the maximum power all the way to the cut-off.

I really don't get this. The Bosch ActiveLine Plus motors (and the Active Line is the same but less powerful), do NOT have the treacle effect unless they are faulty. I thought mine was faulty because for a while I was getting that dreaded treacle that the Crossfire rear hub one had often displayed. Halfords were very patient with me and were on the point of giving me a new bike when they realised I had threaded the chain incorrectly through the derailieur. The previous chain had been approaching the wear limit (after only about 1200 miles!!). It didn;t seem likely to me that these two things a worn chain and incorrect routing could cause only an intermittent treacle effect, but I've done about 800 miles since and not experienced it at all.

Just to emphasise IMHO if you buy a new bike with either an Active Line or and Active Line Plus you should NOT feel a treacle effect over 15mph, and it should be a delight to pedal at 15-25mph which I often do.

Mike

Edit - on my bike the transition from assist to non-assist is barely detectable ie smooth and ramped

The Giant gives full power to about 16mph then tapers, so you get a very small assist above the limit but will cut out at 16.5mph.

The Giant gives full power to about 16mph then tapers, so you get a very small assist above the limit but will cut out at 16.5mph.

Yes - That's what I thought all the modern ones did - ie the Euroregulations allow them to keep powering the bike at above 15.5mph but only to provide the smooth transition to no-assist. I wonder if coming the other way - down from say 20mph, does the assist gradually kick in or is it sudden at 15.5mph? Can't say I've noticed so it must be phasing in above limit. The software probably works out whether you are averageing say 16.5 and then removes all assistance if you are.

Mike

IMO I think a lot of people new to ebikes tend to forget that under the dreaded cutoff there efforts are multiplied by 200/300 % and then all of a sudden it’s taken away and the reality of riding a 24kg bike with probably fat slow tyres hits home.

Try riding with little or no assistance upto and beyond 15 mph to see if there’s any extra drag beyond 15mph, or even ride at 14.5mph without power and then turn it on !

... I tried a bike with an Active Line motor..

What year motor?

 

I looked into this a few weeks ago and it all seems to be a tad confusing.

The problem is that there have been different versions of motors (with different characteristics), but with the same name.

 

So my understanding (and I may be wrong on this!) is that there was an original 50Nm 'Active line' motor that's designated as a 2017 model. I have no idea if this design has the low drag over cutoff feature - it would be good if someone in the know could comment here.

Then they recently (2018?) changed/split the active line, into two models. One still called 'Active line' (but with slightly reduced torque - down to 40Nm from 50 of the original), and an 'Active line plus' with 50Nm. There is a general consensus here that the 'plus' model does indeed have the low drag motor, however while I read some stuff that SEEMED to suggest both new models are low drag, so few people seem to have the 40Nm motor, I've not seen forum postings or reviews conclusively supporting this (but my suspicion is that both the new models are low drag).

 

A similar situation exists with the 'performance line' (and I'm not talking CX). The original performance line is most certainly draggy, but there is now a new model out on at least some of the current 2020 bikes, that uses a large chainring (like the active line models) as opposed to the small 15 or so tooth type of Performance line/Performance line CX motors pre 2020 and that's supposed to now be low drag. So when looking at a bike and trying to work out what characteristic the motor is going to have, you don't seem to be able to just go by name, you have to know the exact year of that motor!?!

IMO I think a lot of people new to ebikes tend to forget that under the dreaded cutoff there efforts are multiplied by 200/300 % and then all of a sudden it’s taken away and the reality of riding a 24kg bike with probably fat slow tyres hits home.

 

I totally agree with this, but some people use this argument to explain away the drag that some motors do give.

I can speak from experience in that if I'm riding a loaded 24Kg non electric bike (with fat tyres!) and I'm going down a very slight incline, I can put in a bit of effort, and I'm flying! I mean, 20mph+ is no problem.

However on an older Bosch performance line ebike, the same slight decline will have me needing to put a MUCH higher effort to sustain the same speeds. The drag from the motor DOES make a big difference in flat or very slight decline scenarios. (if the hills are steeper, then gravity will overcome the drag and its not so much of an issue)

 

Try riding with little or no assistance upto and beyond 15 mph to see if there’s any extra drag beyond 15mph, or even ride at 14.5mph without power and then turn it on !

 

I don't think this is going to tell you much about drag though. If you've got a draggy motor that doesn't decouple, then its still dragging under 15mph even when the power is off!

The only way you can really see what's going on is if you can compare against something that you are certain doesn't introduce any motor drag.

Yes - That's what I thought all the modern ones did - ie the Euroregulations allow them to keep powering the bike at above 15.5mph but only to provide the smooth transition to no-assist. I wonder if coming the other way - down from say 20mph, does the assist gradually kick in or is it sudden at 15.5mph? Can't say I've noticed so it must be phasing in above limit. The software probably works out whether you are averageing say 16.5 and then removes all assistance if you are.

Mike

All power must cease at 25 km/h. When checking it, there's a 10% tolerance to allow for measurement errors, but that doesn't mean it's allowed. It's just to take away any argument about the accuracy of the measuring device. So, according to the regulations, it would be difficult to make a case against you if the motor gives any power at all below 27.5k m/h, but if it gives any power at all above 27.5 km/h, you're definitely out.

The difference between the Active line and the CX is the small drive sprocket on the CX, which involves an extra concentric axle and reduction gear. On the new version CX, they've changed to a normal size drive sprocket, so they don't need that concentric shaft anymore.

 

If you take the chain off a CX bike and turn the pedals by hand, you can feel a tiny bit of resistance compared with a normal bike, but, even turning it fast, you can feel that it's not enough to get excited about. Maybe it's worse when the chain loads the axles. You'd need a proper measuring device to show if that's true.

Yes - That's what I thought all the modern ones did - ie the Euroregulations allow them to keep powering the bike at above 15.5mph but only to provide the smooth transition to no-assist.

Mike

 

Not quite Mike, the phase down in law has to be below the assist limit and power cut right off at 25 kph (15.5 mph).

 

Some makers bend that and do it the way you describe, but that's clearly not in accordance with the letter of the law. In fact the EU wide type approval law then classes them as motor vehicles needing type approval, registration etc!

 

N.B. Crossed with vfr400's post.

.

Just to clarify - as I don't think the OP was asking for a cut-off point above 15mph. On the flat there is a seamless transition on my Crossfuse (activelineplus) from assistance to non-assistance. At 17mph on the flat it is very easy to pedal - or at 20mph. Uphill is different of course because you are lugging an unassisted 25k bike uphill as opposed to typically a 10kilo ordinary bike, but I'm sure you'd be happy with 15mph uphill.

Mike

Good point. Thanks.

Andy

What year motor?

 

I looked into this a few weeks ago and it all seems to be a tad confusing.

......

So when looking at a bike and trying to work out what characteristic the motor is going to have, you don't seem to be able to just go by name, you have to know the exact year of that motor!?!

 

That sums up my anxiety nicely - and there aren't the hours in a day for me to try to figure out which year a bike was made or which firmware version the motor has, especially as every most ebike sales appear to be online and bricks and mortar stores have very few bikes in stock that can be sat on and ridden relative to what they list as available to order. I wouldn't mind as much but I don't want to spend thousands on something that once it arrives I find I don't like and yet have to sit on two hours a day. If I try a bike with say an Active Plus and think, nice motor, but I want a different bike set up, different frame size, can I be sure the bike I end up getting has a motor that behaves the same way.

well if you go to Halfords and try a Crossfuse demonstrator it will have the latest Active Line Plus motor. Take a picture of the bike and motor If you order one it takes about 3 days to come and it will have the latest motor, but if for some strange reason it doesn;t you can just say you don't want the bike.

Not all Halfords carry the Crossfuse demonstartor - you need to ring around.

Mike

just get a dongle as fit riders on clockwork bikes will leave you for dust,15mph is just to slow if you want to ride with friends.

 

just get a dongle as fit riders on clockwork bikes will leave you for dust,15mph is just to slow if you want to ride with friends.

 

 

Nice idea but I don't want to have to stick a numberplate on the back of my bike or pay for additional tax and insurance. And I can't afford to lose my job and quite possibly my house if I ever got caught!

Nice idea but I don't want to have to stick a numberplate on the back of my bike or pay for additional tax and insurance. And I can't afford to lose my job and quite possibly my house if I ever got caught!

just dont kill anyone then and you wont have a problem otherwise the police are not interested at all like every where else.