Which conversion kit?

[Deleted member 33385]

Transformers are fighting Covid, lessons are learned...

 

[vfr400]

The Bafang BBS01 system has been certified that it complies with EN15194, and so have many OEM bikes that it's fitted to. That makes it legal. There's no grey area to discuss. It's only scaremongering on forums like this that spreads these stupid ideas. All you have to do is make sure that the speed limit is correctly set and the throttle, if you have one, is set to 6km/h max and/or non-zero start.

 

[Deleted member 33385]

The Bafang BBS01 system has been certified that it complies with EN15194, and so have many OEM bikes that it's fitted to. That makes it legal. There's no grey area to discuss. It's only scaremongering on forums like this that spreads these stupid ideas. All you have to do is make sure that the speed limit is correctly set and the throttle, if you have one, is set to 6km/h max and/or non-zero start.

There's that charge of "Scaremongering" again.

My kit arrived with zero documentation. Something like the one below would have been useful:

https://www.cycloboost.com/media/guide/Certificat CE BBS 250W.pdf

 

[Deleted member 33385]

The fact that my kit arrived with the throttle set at 17km/h, means it wasn't UK legal. I had to buy a programming cable to make it UK legal. And likely, so will the OP.

 

[FJC71]

vfr400 said:
The Bafang BBS01 system has been certified that it complies with EN15194

That document covers the electrical saftey standards, I would not think that it applies specifically to things like the speed setting as such. I would not take that to mean that a motor fitted to a bike with that certification would necessarily comply with all the current e bike regulations.

 

[vfr400]

That document covers the electrical saftey standards, I would not think that it applies specifically to things like the speed setting as such. I would not take that to mean that a motor fitted to a bike with that certification would necessarily comply with all the current e bike regulations.

You can think what you like, but you're wrong regarding the motor and its speed control.

Have you read EN15194? If you had, you would know that it covers aspects other than safety standards.

The question is whether the software is compliant, which it is because it's been tested and certified and so have many OEM bikes that have used that motor, where the bike the motor and everything has been checked for compliance to EN15194, which is the European standard on which the law is based.

 

[FJC71]

FJC71 said
Have you read EN15194? If you had, you would know that it covers aspects other than safety standards.

Sorry I was looking at this certificate for the Barfang motor https://www.cycloboost.com/media/guide/Certificat CE BBS 250W.pdf , this does not cover the speed. I see now that standard quoted was superseded in 2017. The standard configuration of the motor is with an lcd display that allows the user to change the maximum speed. That alone in itself would be equivalent to an non compliant mode which is specifically against regulations. The certificate would on the face of it does not prove compliance with the current regulations, does anyone have a copy of a certificate which states that it complies with the current standard?

The problem with most kits is that the majority seem to have LCDs with similar displays with the same functionality, which on the face of it seems to make these in strict terms illegal.

 

[montwo]

The standard configuration of the motor is with an lcd display that allows the user to change the maximum speed. That alone in itself would be equivalent to an non compliant mode which is specifically against regulations.

You have a different understanding of the english language to mine. The potential to re-program a maximum speed is not the same thing as the existence of a non-compliant mode.
2 + 2 ! = 5, however much you'd like to argue it does.
If you're able to quote the section of legislation that you think supports your claim then have at it.

 

[FJC71]

You have a different understanding of the english language to mine. The potential to re-program a maximum speed is not the same thing as the existence of a non-compliant mode.
2 + 2 ! = 5, however much you'd like to argue it does.
If you're able to quote the section of legislation that you think supports your claim then have at it

Description of mode here https://m2sbikes.com/adjusting-top-speed/

Legislation here Electric bikes: licensing, tax and insurance - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Specifically

Its electric motor:

• must have a maximum power output of 250 watts
• should not be able to propel the bike when it’s travelling more than 15.5mph

I do not see how you can argue that the ability to change the speed to 45kph is in anyway legal. You are not reprogramming the software at all, the standard software allows illegal operation as an optional mode.

 

[vfr400]

Sorry I was looking at this certificate for the Barfang motor https://www.cycloboost.com/media/guide/Certificat CE BBS 250W.pdf , this does not cover the speed. I see now that standard quoted was superseded in 2017. The standard configuration of the motor is with an lcd display that allows the user to change the maximum speed. That alone in itself would be equivalent to an non compliant mode which is specifically against regulations. The certificate would on the face of it does not prove compliance with the current regulations, does anyone have a copy of a certificate which states that it complies with the current standard?

The problem with most kits is that the majority seem to have LCDs with similar displays with the same functionality, which on the face of it seems to make these in strict terms illegal.

The problem is not the compliance of the motor, nor the regulations. Instead, it's your inderstanding. What you're saying is equivalent to: If you have a carving knife in your kitchen drawer, you might be arrested for possession of an offensive weapon.

 

[montwo]

I do not see how you can argue that the ability to change the speed to 45kph is in anyway legal.

I'd guess you do not see how a bike can legally throw out 500+ watts either. But it can.

 

[FJC71]

montwo

I'd guess you do not see how a bike can legally throw out 500+ watts either. But it can.

That statement is not really relevant in this case. I have not discussed the power output and I am not going into a discussion on motor power that has been covered many times on this forum.

The point is the rule is it must be limited to 15kph if you have the facility to change that, its not compliant.

 

[montwo]

That statement is not really relevant in this case. I have not discussed the power output and I am not going into a discussion on motor power that has been covered many times on this forum.

The point is the rule is it must be limited to 15kph if you have the facility to change that, its not compliant.

You claimed two specifics:

• must have a maximum power output of 250 watts
• should not be able to propel the bike when it’s travelling more than 15.5mph

It's surely relevant that the claim you made about power is wholly wrong - after all it puts your understanding into question.
Is a bike legal if I'm riding with a dongle in my pocket?
What if I can change speed limit by going into settings on the display?
What if it can be changed by attaching a laptop?
What if I can take it to the shop to get it changed?
Can you quote the part of the law that backs up what you're claiming? Because so far you haven't.
Edit: the law doesn't say 15kph by the way. It doesn't even say 15mph.

 

[FJC71]

The problem is not the compliance of the motor, nor the regulations. Instead, it's your understanding. What you're saying is equivalent to: If you have a carving knife in your kitchen drawer, you might be arrested for possession of an offensive weapon.

I dont think that is the case and you have not put an argument up that would counter what I have said. I dont see the relevance of your example, there is no law concerning owning a knife, but you can be arrested if you have it on your person in public, that is breaking the law. That is not the same as riding a cycle that has a facility to exceed the 15kph speed limitation when the ability to do so is specifically banned under the regulations.

Looking at the certificate again there is no mention of the display used and hence is it really relevant at all. How can you say something is compliant when its is not mentioned on the document. After all surely its the whole system that must comply not just the motor.

 

[Deleted member 33385]

Hi
I'm Alice a new member and would value some advice on which conversion kit to get for me hybrid bike.
I live in Snowdonia, so lots of hills and in particular riding home is long pull up since we live at 750 feet above sea level. Hence I'm not riding my bike much.
I'd like to do rides from home, maximum two hours. I want a really light kit. On the cycling front I'm prepared to do a bit of work but need bit of assistance. I'd like the conversion to be as simple as possible. I was thinking of a front hub motor because it's lighter and also to have the option of occasionally changing back to my normal wheel easily.
I think Vekkit would fit the bill. Advice and suggestions gratefully appreciated.

Let us know how you get on, with whatever pedelec you decide to buy or make.

 

[vfr400]

I dont think that is the case and you have not put an argument up that would counter what I have said. I dont see the relevance of your example, there is no law concerning owning a knife, but you can be arrested if you have it on your person in public, that is breaking the law. That is not the same as riding a cycle that has a facility to exceed the 15kph speed limitation when the ability to do so is specifically banned under the regulations.

Looking at the certificate again there is no mention of the display used and hence is it really relevant at all. How can you say something is compliant when its is not mentioned on the document. After all surely its the whole system that must comply not just the motor.

Do you know how certification works? Have you heard of SGS and Tuv?

Manufacturers make a bike. They take it to one of these certification bodies, who check whether it complies with the laws and regulations, then they give it a certificate of compliance. These guys are experts on the rules and laws. If they make a mistake, they would have huge liability issues. They have tested the BBS01 system and many complete bikes with it fitted, and they issued certificates of compliance.

Your opinion based on your lack of understanding and misjudgement of the rules is completely irrelevant, and it's very wrong to try to mislead or misinform people on this forum, who need correct information on which to base their choices.

 

[FJC71]

montwo

montwo

• must have a maximum power output of 250 watts

I have never mentioned the power as I have said before that has been discussed on this forum before its not relevant the assumption is that it will comply in those terms in this case. Assume for argument that the motor concerned is rated at 250w.

montwo

• should not be able to propel the bike when it’s travelling more than 15.5mph

I have never stated that you cannot pedal faster that 15mph I had assumed that this would be taken for granted.

montwo
It's surely relevant that the claim you made about power is wholly wrong - after all it puts your understanding into question.

Again I have never asserted this you are putting words into my mouth you are making a false statement so really its your understanding of the discussion that is in doubt.

montwo
Is a bike legal if I'm riding with a dongle in my pocket?

If your dongle is not attached its not part of the bike so its not comparable in that sense to an inbuilt option on the display. Plugged in it would of course be different.

montwo
What if I can change speed limit by going into settings on the display?

Your bike would be capable of exceeding the maximum for power input therefore the bike is strictly illegal.

montwoWhat if it can be changed by attaching a laptop?

Its not relevant if its not a component of the bike only if you derestrict the bike would it be so.

montwoWhat if I can take it to the shop to get it changed?

Not relevant as its the bike as it is not with any modification a shop might do, again if they did it then it would be so.

montwo
Can you quote the part of the law that backs up what you're claiming? Because so far you haven't.
Edit:the law doesn't say 15kph by the way. It doesn't even say 15mph.

I refer you to the e bike law section of this forum.

Derestriction, ‘off-road’ switches or modes and dongles

The Department of Transport say that electric bikes fitted with off-road switches or modes, that enable a bike’s motor to continue assisting to speeds beyond 15.5mph, do not comply with UK EAPC law. The term ‘off-road’ suggests that these bikes can be ridden on parkland, forests or other places away from main roads, which isn’t accurate. E-bikes with increased motor power (continuous rated power above 250w) or increased speed (with motor assistance not cutting out at 15.5mph) cannot be used legally as bicycles anywhere on land accessible by the public; when riding on private land you would need permission from the landowner.

Most displays seem to fall foul of that one, and that includes some kits sold as street legal.

 

[montwo]

I have never mentioned the power as I have said before that has been discussed on this forum before its not relevant the assumption is that it will comply in those terms in this case. Assume for argument that the motor concerned is rated at 250w.

Scroll up to post #69.

Its electric motor:

• must have a maximum power output of 250 watts
• should not be able to propel the bike when it’s travelling more than 15.5mph

Who wrote that?

 

[Nealh]

Whether one can change the speed matters not, as long as at the time when one is at all challenged and the bike is set to the legal speed then it is in compliance of the law and being used within the law.

 

[FJC71]

Your opinion based on your lack of understanding and misjudgement of the rules is completely irrelevant, and it's very wrong to try to mislead or misinform people on this forum, who need correct information on which to base their choices.

Your argument seems to be that I know better and that because this is on a piece of paper this must be true and hope that everyone believes it must be relevant. The certificate is not the whole story though is it.

Your approach seem to bully rather than argue the point and none of what you have said in anyway addresses the issue.

The fact that the certificate refers to a motor is neither hear nor there, the certificate does not mention the piece of optional equipment namely the display. By that simple omission it you can put what ever control regime you like including one that does not comply with the current regulations. That would appear to be the case currently. I have never seriously considered the Barfang motor but all the displays I have seen seem to allow a change of the limit to 45kph.

The certificate must be either have been superseded or be for an element of the system namely the motor only. If it were valid for the whole thing than somewhere there should be a description of the display. I would conclude it relates to the motor only and not to the operation of the bike.

Put simply how can you then install a display that means the bike is capable of assisting to 45 kph and comply with

Derestriction, ‘off-road’ switches or modes and dongles

The Department of Transport say that electric bikes fitted with off-road switches or modes, that enable a bike’s motor to continue assisting to speeds beyond 15.5mph, do not comply with UK EAPC law. The term ‘off-road’ suggests that these bikes can be ridden on parkland, forests or other places away from main roads, which isn’t accurate. E-bikes with increased motor power (continuous rated power above 250w) or increased speed (with motor assistance not cutting out at 15.5mph) cannot be used legally as bicycles anywhere on land accessible by the public; when riding on private land you would need permission from the landowner.

I suggest that you put you efforts into explaining how the facility or "mode" if you like to change the limiting speed on an e bike that would be useful.