Which bikes are now the best ?

[Flying Kiwi]

When those living near me and everywhere else for that matter have a minimum of 15000 watts available when driving their way to the tip, I'm not going to worry about the miniscule difference between the charge costs of a Twist and Quando. One penny on a full charge maybe?

That misses the point that the manufacturer could choose to address the efficiency but instead they're just compensating and that says very important things about their design philosophy. People are welcome to go for a second best compromise offering but I'm not going to provide any recommendations encouraging that. Sure it's very little in terms of running costs but there's also the fact that electric motors being heavily controlled via switching controllers also suffer from lack of smoothness and increased noise. Even the Twist suffers this momentarily when starting off. It's most commonly seen on trains which make varying noises on start. Irrespective of how well this has been silenced and smoothened out on the hub motor bikes, there's no denying these are issues which crank motor bike designers dont need to worry about to the same extent.

Not when the only motor assembly repair possible is a replacement unit at £450, as three users have currently found out to my personal knowledge. Only this morning another has cropped up who may also face this. For this reason I'm usually no longer recommending people buy them secondhand, I don't wish to be the cause of their dissatisfaction if this happens to them.

Hardly a concern if going by the figures I've seen a couple of thousand were sold here. It also doesn't explain why AtoB have highly reccomended the original Twist, with no mention of technical problems at all. Clearly a much 'safer' bet than a product from a manufacturer which has no reservations about compensating for inefficiencies by just including a more powerful motor. If that more powerful motor was included in a from the ground up design crank type machine then you'd get the best of both worlds, performance and efficiency.

Maybe it's a bike age thing, but there's a mini wave of these problems cropping up now, and with virtually no support it's not a nice situation. As I said to Mitty, it's worthwhile in lieu of one of the exotics at £2000 plus, since the price difference will cover a couple of replacement units, but not for most customers.
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I think 'mini wave' is quite an emotive way to say 3 known cases out of 2000 sold in the UK, or was it 4? You haven't convinced me the risks of my Twist motor failing in any way are worth even the slightest amount of concern, certainly nothing compared to a manufacturer unwilling to listen to and act on sound technical advise from the public. Lets get it straight, the Gazelle Easy Glider is priced at about £1467 here in the UK, thats hardly a £2000 + exotic. It's actually only a small percentage increase over a much less well specified well known hub motor bike I can think of thats sold here and which certainly has inferior hill climbing abilities.

 

[Leonardo]

I'm sorry Flying Kiwi, at the moment I don't succeed in finding the page in the French forum. The report of Extraenergy speking of "low assistance factor uphill" is most surely known by you. May be there is a difference in the batteries? The Gazelle litium costs almost an half of the panasonic one of Flyer and Helkama (which are very complicated batteries). In any case I agree with you that Gazelle is a superbe bicycle, but I remember having put it out of my dreams because of the lower uphill ability compared to the Flyer: I hope it is not just prejudice, since the one comes from a flat land and the other from a very hilly one!

 

[flecc]

That misses the point that the manufacturer could choose to address the efficiency but instead they're just compensating and that says very important things about their design philosophy. People are welcome to go for a second best compromise offering but I'm not going to provide any recommendations encouraging that. Sure it's very little in terms of running costs but there's also the fact that electric motors being heavily controlled via switching controllers also suffer from lack of smoothness and increased noise. Even the Twist suffers this momentarily when starting off. It's most commonly seen on trains which make varying noises on start. Irrespective of how well this has been silenced and smoothened out on the hub motor bikes, there's no denying these are issues which crank motor bike designers dont need to worry about to the same extent.

Calling the eZee motor overkill is exaggeration, as the Torq shows, it's a reasonable amount of power for an e-bike to reach 20 mph in most, but not all conditions on the flat, and in no way is there a surfeit of power. Much of the world sees 20 mph as an entirely reasonable e-bike speed, and I can equally say it's the Twist series that's underpowered due to the strength restrictions of bike gearing. Geared up for it, the Twist series cannot run the bikes at 20 mph with any consistency due to that lack of power, so is deficient in that respect, something that harmed it's sales in the USA. In other words, this is just a matter of opinion, not fact, and my opinion differs but is not by that token wrong.

The lack of smoothness is academic! It's an issue of no concern in practice, and the only reason it's noticed on the Torq is the slight overgearing of that motor. In a 24" wheel it would still do 20 mph and would have smoother take off. On the Quando it isn't noticeable at all, please try one if you get the chance

Hardly a concern if going by the figures I've seen a couple of thousand were sold here. It also doesn't explain why AtoB have highly reccomended the original Twist, with no mention of technical problems at all. Clearly a much 'safer' bet than a product from a manufacturer which has no reservations about compensating for inefficiencies by just including a more powerful motor.

Those forking out £450 will not agree with you, and there is no rational reason why it's a safer bet than the case you quote, quite the opposite. That motor can be even more reliable since it's simpler. Big lazy V8s last much longer and have always been more reliable than more efficiently designed smaller engines in the car world.

I'm always in touch with A to B and they are well aware of the issues I've mentioned, and are themselves dealing with one such today. Furthermore, they have mentioned reliability issues in their latest issue article. Four in only weeks is a matter for concern, for if that rate continues to any degree at all, it could rise to a more serious proportion. I'd be more inclined to agree with you if the only repair option wasn't almost half the price of the bike, but that is a matter for real concern, no matter how few are affected. Remember, that's just the part, the dealer's labour etc goes on top.

I think 'mini wave' is quite an emotive way to say 3 known cases out of 2000 sold in the UK, or was it 4? You haven't convinced me the risks of my Twist motor failing in any way are worth even the slightest amount of concern,

See above. The owners it's affected don't need convincing, but you try convincing them it's not a matter for concern.
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[Leonardo]

Hope I’m not OT (but I think not…).

Speaking about the drag problem of the hub motors, a friend of mine let me known that perhaps there is a system that avoids that.

If you look at that hub motor,

the black hinge (please forgive me for the wrong techical terms!) doesn’t move, while the small cylinder marked with an arrow rotates inside the cavity shown in the second photo;

inside the cavity there are some small pistons acting as a freewheel: in such way, when motor is off the orbital gears stay still.
Does it make sense? And in the case, is that a special feature of that italian pedelec?

 

[flecc]

Yes, rotation locking systems like that can be used Leonardo, but most rely on one freewheel between the motor and the gear drive, so although the motor is disconnected, when the wheel turns the gears must turn too. A few don't even have one freewheel, so everything must turn as the bike rolls, and that's the case on regenerating systems like the BionX and the new Twist.

Even where there's full disengagement, the unsprung weight of a front hub motor does spoil the cycling experience to some extent, compared to a normal bike, and rear hub motors are better in this respect.
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[Leonardo]

Thank you very much flecc. It is actually a rear hub motor.

 

[Baboonking]

Hi Leonardo, what hub motor is that?

 

[Leonardo]

It is a quite old brush motor of an Italian pedelec called frisbee. Now they have brushless motors. It should have also a second freewheel as described by flecc between the motor and the gear drive. It is quite a good and powerful bicycle, one of the most widespread in Italy, but unfortunately heavy and with an old styling.

 

[flecc]

I could see it was heavy Leonardo, and that's another reason why that decoupling refinement isn't commonly used, it can't be done without weight. Many of the modern hub motors are carefully designed using sophisticated CAD techniques to have just enough strength for the job, with weight saving in mind, so extra weight is avoided as much as possible. The power to weight ratio of motors like the eZee Quando/Torq one is very much better than that of older designs.
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[Leonardo]

The power to weight ratio of motors like the eZee Quando/Torq one is very much better than that of older designs.

Is it a Crystalyte motor? Or does Ezee produce its own?

 

[Flying Kiwi]

Calling the eZee motor overkill is exaggeration, as the Torq shows, it's a reasonable amount of power for an e-bike to reach 20 mph in most, but not all conditions on the flat, and in no way is there a surfeit of power.

I wouldn't call an eZee motor overkill. It may be convenient for sellers if potential purchasers think of a particular bike as being 'powerful' but the reality is that power along with speed under power is governed tightly by the law here in the UK. If it's a bike that runs outside of UK law requirements thats saught, then an unrestricted Swizzbee 50c would be one of the best performing (although not the most powerful) offering out there. It has ingenious gearing and controlling systems - again a case of making the most of what little power is available. The manufacturers claim it can be comfortably ridden at 50 km/h with only moderate pedalling required - try that on any other electric bike! This bike does come under the exotic £2000+ category but it is a case of you get what you pay for. The brute force approach doesn't appeal to me . It's efficient bike designs that get my respect, particularly models like the 270 Watt motor powered Swizzbee 50c.

Much of the world sees 20 mph as an entirely reasonable e-bike speed, and I can equally say it's the Twist series that's underpowered due to the strength restrictions of bike gearing.

According to AtoB the Panasonic PSU was fitted with a more powerful motor and larger capacity battery in European markets when compared to the Japanese market. In the UK the speed limit beyond which power assistance must not occur is 15 mph so even if you have the biggest and heaviest of motors, its going to be restricted to comply. Giant is good at complying with UK laws regarding maximum speed under power.

Geared up for it, the Twist series cannot run the bikes at 20 mph with any consistency due to that lack of power,

The US market restrictions are very different to here though. The law here says the maximum permitted sustained power is limited to 200/250 Watts - the Twist has 240 Watts so complies with this. Anything more powerful than that would run the risk of being illegal. If your point was solely to indicate the Giant Lite sold in the US wasn't as powerful or as fast as it could have been over there then I agree but its a different kettle of fish here and that line of reasoning is invalid for the UK market.

The lack of smoothness is academic! It's an issue of no concern in practice, and the only reason it's noticed on the Torq is the slight overgearing of that motor.

Either it's noticed on some hub motor bikes or it's not, sounds to me that you've admited my point which is it's something manufacturers of hub motor bikes must take steps to deal with much more than crank motor powered bike designers need to worry about. Personally, I'm waiting for the crank drive versions that manufacturers of quality bikes will inevitably produce.

Those forking out £450 will not agree with you, and there is no rational reason why it's a safer bet than the case you quote, quite the opposite.

The reason is that 4 out of 3000 (It turns out about 3000 Twists were sold here not 2000) is a tiny percentage. Weather plays a big part in bike usage and any fault is statistically more likely to occur during times of more common/frequent usage, particularly after a break in usage. Personally I'd like it if subcomponents were available for all electric bike motors but this isn't possible for most as they get in their motors or PSUs as complete assemblies from their supplier. Of course there'll be exceptions but if the motor is of sound design and is brushless it should last the reasonable life of the bike without need of any internal work. I'm in no way persuaded that this won't be the case with the Giant Twist. The Twist's presence in the market both as the remaining few new bikes and the secondhand market (if your lucky enough to find someone willing to sell one) will continue to offer good competition to the other machines around the same price range.

I'm always in touch with A to B and they are well aware of the issues I've mentioned, and are themselves dealing with one such today. Furthermore, they have mentioned reliability issues in their latest issue article.

Although they mentioned problems with the chargers and a small number of the early bikes suffering minor electronic problems the fact the bike is described as being tough on gears does not mean there has been a need to replace hub internals with any regularity. It just indicates how important it is to treat them well and only change gear when you're not pushing down on the pedals, common sense really. I think you'll find those who've needed to replace their gears on a Twist due to failure have either mistreated them by attempting to change under load or subjected them to loads beyond what the bike was intended to carry/haul. You are the only one I've heard of who's experienced this problem (after having towed trailers with the bike for some time). The fact you replaced your P5 with another of the same strength, rather than replacing the whole hub with the stronger design "Cargo P5" model tells me you're not to worried about it failing again anytime soon, even with your trailer towing.

Four in only weeks is a matter for concern, for if that rate continues to any degree at all, it could rise to a more serious proportion.

And if the sky falls what then chicken little? Come on thats just scaremongering and there's not even the faintest hint your observation can't be explained by owners getting there bikes out for the fist time in a while with the nice weather.

I'd be more inclined to agree with you if the only repair option wasn't almost half the price of the bike, but that is a matter for real concern, no matter how few are affected. Remember, that's just the part, the dealer's labour etc goes on top.

Has anyone actually tried going through Panasonic/Matsushita Industrial directly? It seems to me that as Giant would have only got the PSUs from them as a built up assembly, they can't split them apart for parts sales. There's a chance that Giant may have some old ones lying around that they can salvage parts from though, they've helped me out in this way with other "non-stocked" parts in the past.

 

[allotmenteer]

On the subject of crank drives here is a review of the cyclone:

Endless-sphere.com :: View topic - Finally! The Cyclone 500 watt review...

Paul

 

[flecc]

To Flying Kiwi

It's obviously a waste of time trying to convince you that what you are wishing for is "pie in the sky", since it appears to me that you are unrealistic in your assessments and avoid direct answers to the points made, raising issues not raised all the time. A couple of examples:

When mentioning power, I made no reference to UK law, just what power is reasonable on a bike.

When previously mentioning mainstream electric bikes, you raised an over £1400 example, which by no stretch of anyone's imagination is mainstream. Mainstream where the largest number of bikes has been sold for years and still is, is between £300 and £600. Yes, they're sometimes junk, but that's besides the point.

You accuse me of scaremongering, avoiding the point that these bikes are not getting any younger. Owners facing a £450+ bill aren't interested in whether they are one in ten or one in ten thousand, as far as they are concerned they are experiencing 100% of the problem.

I'm very far from the only person who's experienced hub gear failure, and don't accept what you say on this. A number of the 3 and 4 speed Nexus hubs failed, and although A to B seem to think the 4 speed was the best, theirs failed! That's why they fitted a seven speed, and you may agree with me that the P5 is a tougher hub than the Nexus 4. Also, you misrepresent my intent with the new P5 I fitted, since I said very clearly at the time that I wasn't worried about replacing it from time to time. In other words, I expect it to go again, and replacing it with the same was nothing to do with thinking it would last. As I also said at the time, I turned down the Cargo version on grounds of limited range (225%).

As for motors, the failures are with the internal bearing going, and as a sealed unit, that's not replaceable. The one I mentioned that A to B are currently involved with is one of these, and I know of one other failed and one on the way. The proportion doesn't matter when the bikes are steadily aging, these are useful indications of likely future events that are dealt with by a £450 bill. That's the point I'm making, the inevitability of the proportion rising and it's consequential cost. Again you are completely unrealistic in your suggestions of contacting Panasonic etc. Thats fine for you as a knowledgeable engineer, but for the average owner or bike shop who wouldn't know where to begin in identifying a faulty part, it's impractical.

My position remains that as a realist my commercial judgment tells me we will not be seeing another like the Giant Twist series in anywhere near the mainstream market. It failed miserably in that market, and any sensible businessman notes that and acts upon it. The only examples if any will be in the tiny high price market.

We both know of the intrinsic design and engineering superiority of crank drive systems, but I'm prepared to recognise and have demonstrated that hub motors can realistically do the same and sometimes better job in an acceptable and commercially realistic way. I also recognise that present cycle gear systems can be a serious limitation on what can be achieved with crank drive systems.

Could you check your PMs shortly please. Thanks.
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[flecc]

Is it a Crystalyte motor? Or does Ezee produce its own?

No, they're not Crystalite motors Leonardo. They appear to be their own, but they probably have them manufactured for them in someone else's facility.
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[Jeanette Morgan]

Hi Mitty,

I changed my Giant Lafree for an Ezee Sprint 7 speed as I found it hard having to always pedel up some of the hills after work. It was the right decision as I now have E mode, Pedelec or sheer leg work! I too live in Cornwall and commute 8 miles to Treliske (do you live nearby). I could not do this without an electric bike due to the hills and roads in Cornwall. The E mode really helps going across Chivverton roundabout, I always know I shall be able to steer a straight (or rather round!) course and that I shall have enough speed to get me over quickly. My husband also now has one, he is rehabilitating following open heart surgery and he manages very well with the hills. I often carry shopping on my bike so I am pretty sure that you could tow with it. I know you could with a Lafree.

I purchased both our bikes direct from 50 cycles who are excellent. I could not get them, or even my own bike, through the Cycle Scheme as Treliske specify local dealers. There is a shop in Truro who has experience of electric bikes and does stock, and services them. It is where I have mine serviced/repair, perhaps you know the shop.

hope this helps,

Jeanette

 

[Flying Kiwi]

To flecc (and other interested forum readers)

I replied to your PM thinking that'd be it and then found your post here. My PM clearly explains my views and responses in detail but for the benifit of forum readers here's a summary of it/response to new points made.

There is no eveidence that more crank motor bikes aren't likely to appear on the scene. The Gazelle Easy Glider at just a little higher that the price of a Torq and around that of the new Twist is itself a very new bike. Do you believe a mainstream Dutch bike manufacturer (which Gazelle are) would be in the habit of releasing products without carefully adding up the sums to ensure they're commercially feasable?

Yes you didn't mention the law regarding what you consider to be reasonable power and I myself consider the Swizzbee's 270 Watts to be reasonable, (especially in light of the speed it gets up to). The fact remains that it's important potential buyers such as mitty are made aware of this if they don't already know so they can (at least) ensure the bike is suitably restricted to be legal if required.

Re "mainstream", mitty's original post mentioned a Swizzbee is being considered, does this sound like a buyer looking for a mainstream bike? I was responding appropriately to what I believed may be a suitable product for the person who started the thread. I'm sorry if my response was incorrectly connected to a quote you made rather than me making it clear it was addressing the larger issue of the original post.

Re Scaremongering, this just looks like further scaremongering. Of course the bikes aren't getting younger but as you very well know, the vast majority of components in a bike do not deteriorate with age but with use. Do you not think there will be secondhand low mileage models around in the future as well as old stock of the new Twists if people act fast enough? Aside from that, even with the points I mentioned from the latest AtoB, they still mentioned the Twist was a reliable bike and with their reputation at stake I'm sure they wouldn't write that if they felt the issues mentioned were significant detracters.

As for the gears, now you mention it I do remeber AtoB referring to the hub replacement. You fail to paint the whole picture though by ommitting to mention that they also regularly tow trailers with their bike. They also chose to replace the hub with an SRAM S7 (a newer hub than the P5), That to me says they believe the hub to be strong enough for some time to come. I realise that range was a factor in your choice of the standard P5 over the Cargo but it's still clear that longevity wasn't a big concern or you would have looked elsewhere altogether (such as the Shimano 8 speed fitted to the Easy Glider). As you rightly point out, in the event of eventual further failure, the gear internals can be fairly easily replaced (at modest cost).

You misinterpret my question of whether "anyone" has tried contacting Panasonic/Matsushita. No I don't expect the less technically knowledgable people who are unlucky enough to have a PSU problem to write to Panasonic but this forum is composed of many more than those people and I'm sure you'll agree there's a wealth of knowledge here.

I've not heard of bearing failures with the Panasonic PSU, I guess that emphasises the importance of ensuring the bike isn't cleaned around seal areas such as pedal cranks with high pressure water or solvent but is wiped clean in these areas. Fortunately bearings do not wear with age or deteriorate if treated correctly, they wear with use and loading. I'd be extremely surprised if bearing failures couldn't be attribututed to the above mistreatment or extremely high, rough use. While I've not seen the internals of the Panasonic PSU (other than your webpage), even if the correct bearing could not be obtained through Giant or Panasonic, whats wrong with taking it's part no or size and specs to a bearing specialist and asking them to grind the old one off and press the new one on? Of course I've not tried disassembling the PSU as you have but can these parts not be fully accessed after a bit of desoldering work, otherwise how were they assembled in the first place?

Your simply wrong regarding your claim about a similar replacement for the Twist. There is already one in the form of the Gazelle Easy Glider and it's only about £250 dearer than the top of the range Twist Comfort ST was. It's currently being manufacturered by a major Dutch bike maker and it's only a matter of time (and some more effective marketing from Gazelle) before it becomes mainstream here, that is unless other manufacturers revise their stances and choose to realease crank drive bikes also and head it off at the pass ;-)

My advise to mitty is he's already on the right track with the models he originally mentioned and considered as long as budget permits. The Gazelle Easy Glider may be a cheaper alternative but due to all of the points mentioned, I sincerely hope a hub motor powered bike (of any brand) isn't settled on as I don't believe that would be the best option (although some models may meet some of the needs).

 

[flecc]

I cannot have a sensible discussion on this if you base what you say on £1400+ bikes being mainstream in a market where the mainstream is and has been for years clearly around £300 to £600. Even someone like Thompson who only sell through three shops in a small part of the country and not online shift more bikes in this price bracket every two years than the entire six year sales of the Twist series, most of which incidentally were at £869 and £899.

£1400+ as mainstream is the stuff of fantasy.

Anyway, I hope as privately communicated we can end this here.