Which bike to buy?

[minime]

minime, would you answer this question for me?
Now you know you need 600+Watts to hit 25mph, 1,200+Watts to hit 30mph and that the same 30mph kit can be used at lower speed for better range.
How much money would put you off going from 25mph to 30mph?
In other words, what would be your ball park price for a 25mph bike and for a 30mph bike?

The core function of the e-bike is to commute small distances (<5 miles). Occasionally, I go for longer rides around town using full PAS but I pedal as well to increase my range. For that reason, the Cyclamatic CX1 that I own is adequate.

Based off the information I've collected from the Internet in general and from members of this forum in particular on e-bikes , I am 99% certain that I would run the e-bike at around 25mph (at most) for a variety reasons (e.g. safety, not drawing attention, etc). Now that the top speed is out of the way, the better acceleration I can get and the greater the range, the better.

The answer to your original questions is that I wouldn't mind going as high as 1500GBP. My options so far are the Pedalease 1500w for around 800GBP and the pricier (~1300GBP) VooDoo bikes from thesmallgreenroom but I am open to suggestions.

 

[Woosh]

Thank you for the view. I was looking for a figure, like £300 for the capability to go 5mph higher.

I am not suggesting a choice between the two because I have seen neither.
For 25 mph, both your choices are good and indeed any bike fitted with 20+A controller can potentially do that, including the Greenway with the Bafang Max Drive in another thread.

 

[minime]

Thank you for the view. I was looking for a figure, like £300 for the capability to go 5mph higher.

I am not suggesting a choice between the two because I have seen neither.
For 25 mph, both your choices are good and indeed any bike fitted with 20+A controller can potentially do that, including the Greenway with the Bafang Max Drive in another thread.

The Cyclamatic CX1 can do 15mph for £450. To go up to 25mph, I would pay up to £1000 more (so around £1500 in total for a new bike).

All things considered equal (including average speed), a bike with higher motor wattage has greater range that a bike with lesser motor wattage?

 

[Woosh]

All things considered equal (including average speed), a bike with higher motor wattage has greater range that a bike with lesser motor wattage?

No, battery consumption is essentially a function of speed.
You can have a bike capable of 30mph, ride it at 15mph and use less battery than me because you can put in a few more Watts than me. Some bikes have thin tyres and solid fork (like the Woosh Karoo), they are particularly efficient on battery consumption.

 

[minime]

So

No, battery consumption is essentially a function of speed.
You can have a bike capable of 30mph, ride it at 15mph and use less battery than me because you can put in a few more Watts than me. Some bikes have thin tyres and solid fork (like the Woosh Karoo), they are particularly efficient on battery consumption.

So if you want to run a bike at 25mph and are given a choice between two kits that are priced the same and are almost identical (except for motor wattage, say one is 800w and the other is 1600w), which one would you choose and why?

 

[Woosh]

that's the question I'd like to ask you.
Jim @ Woosh has a 1,500W motor on his bike, he loves it and I don't. I ride the new Zephyr 2017 around town. Just to say we like different things.

 

[minime]

So

So if you want to run a bike at 25mph and are given a choice between two kits that are priced the same and are almost identical (except for motor wattage, say one is 800w and the other is 1600w), which one would you choose and why?

that's the question I'd like to ask you.
Jim @ Woosh has a 1,500W motor on his bike, he loves it and I don't. I ride the new Zephyr 2017 around town. Just to say we like different things.

So a more powerful motor offers no advantages over a less powerful one?

 

[Woosh]

yes, the advantage of a 1,500W over a 1,000W is the extra 500W on tap, should you want to use it. That's why I wanted to know how much would you value the additional power.

 

[minime]

yes, the advantage of a 1,500W over a 1,000W is the extra 500W on tap, should you want to use it. That's why I wanted to know how much would you value the additional power.

The extra 500W tap can only be used to increase top speed, correct? Are there any other performance benefits?

 

[Woosh]

Yes, better acceleration, albeit a geared hub like a BPM will wipe the floor of the 1500W motor in the first couple of seconds.
One of my customers owns a similar 1,500W kit. After two years, it ripped his fork off one day. He got the bike repaired and run a BBS02 48V kit that we sold him last year. He told me that speed wise, both do about the same (30mph) but the BBS02 is lighter and the weight more centralised. He is happy with the change.

 

[minime]

Yes, better acceleration, albeit a geared hub like a BPM will wipe the floor of the 1500W motor in the first couple of seconds.
One of my customers owns a similar 1,500W kit. After two years, it ripped his fork off one day. He got the bike repaired and run a BBS02 48V kit that we sold him last year. He told me that speed wise, both do about the same (30mph) but the BBS02 is lighter and the weight more centralised. He is happy with the change.

Now I am confused.

Say you have two almost identical bikes/controllers/batteries, etc; only difference is in motor wattage (1600w vs 800w).

If both are derestricted, the 1600w bike will have greater top speed.
If both are run at 25mph, the 1600w bike will have greater range and greater acceleration.

Correct?

Therefore, if two kits, 800w and 1600w respectively, have identical prices, it stands to reason that the latter is preferable (you get more for your money). Correct?

PS: I don't know how to install one of your kits, otherwise I'd go for it.

 

[Woosh]

Now I am confused.

Say you have two almost identical bikes/controllers/batteries, etc; only difference is in motor wattage (1600w vs 800w).

If both are derestricted, the 1600w bike will have greater top speed.
If both are run at 25mph, the 1600w bike will have greater range and greater acceleration.

Correct?

Range is proportional to battery capacity. You pay for capacity.
If both bikes cost the same, fitted with the same battery then I would buy the one with stronger motor.

PS: I don't know how to install one of your kits, otherwise I'd go for it.

BBS02 are available in two versions, the price is the same.
48V BBS02 can hit 30mph, 36V BBS02 can hit 25mph.
We stopped selling BBS02 48V more than two years now, however, you can buy 48V BBS02 at many places, ebay, eclipse, panda etc.

It's just a matter of policy for us, sorry I confused you.

 

[minime]

Range is proportional to battery capacity. You pay for capacity.
If both bikes cost the same, fitted with the same battery then I would buy the one with stronger motor.



BBS02 are available in two versions, the price is the same.
48V BBS02 can hit 30mph, 36V BBS02 can hit 25mph.
We stopped selling BBS02 48V more than two years now, however, you can buy 48V BBS02 at many places, ebay, eclipse, panda etc.

It's just a matter of policy for us, sorry I confused you.

Don't worry about it. You've been very helpful. Thank you.

 

[danielrlee]

Hold on to your hats, I'm about to throw some more science into the discussion...

Torque is a function of stator width. This means that all else being equal, a 25mm motor will generate half as much torque as a 50mm motor. Therefore, it is possible that a higher rated motor will give greater performance than a lower rated one for the same energy input. Alternatively, greater efficiency for a given level of torque, even after taking into account the extra mass.

As I've said previously, don't get hung up on 'ratings' as they're largely meaningless. When it comes to DD motors, attributes such as mass, stator width/diameter, stator material, phase resistance, lamination thickness and winding spec are much more useful.

From your more recent comments though, it sounds like you don't need a DD motor after all and a large geared hub might be more suitable for you.

 

[Woosh]

Geared hubs usually have 5:1 reduction on 500W motors. At 335 RPM for his 26" wheels, the clutch unit will wear out too quickly.

 

[soundwave]

this is what you want

etek motors.

 

[minime]

Hold on to your hats, I'm about to throw some more science into the discussion...

Torque is a function of stator width. This means that all else being equal, a 25mm motor will generate half as much torque as a 50mm motor. Therefore, it is possible that a higher rated motor will give greater performance than a lower rated one for the same energy input. Alternatively, greater efficiency for a given level of torque, even after taking into account the extra mass.

As I've said previously, don't get hung up on 'ratings' as they're largely meaningless. When it comes to DD motors, attributes such as mass, stator width/diameter, stator material, phase resistance, lamination thickness and winding spec are much more useful.

From your more recent comments though, it sounds like you don't need a DD motor after all and a large geared hub might be more suitable for you.

Ratings are really the only metrics for performance of e-bikes for newbies like myself. I don't know enough about e-bikes to ask the right questions which is why I am asking for help on this forum.

To reiterate:
a) top speed ~25mph
b) used on flat, public roads
c) budget of 1500GBP at most
d) the greater the acceleration and the greater the range, the better

Any recommendations besides the 1500w Pedalease and the 1500w Voodoo Hoodoo?

 

[Woosh]

minime, read wordy's thread about the Oxygen
http://pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/oxygen-setting-help.27109/
That bike has a Bafang SWX02 motor and I think a 15A controller. Wordy derestricted it, got a buckled wheel in an afternoon and said afterward:

great fun but sensible riding from now on , cheers

Are you sure you need 1,500W motor and a 48V 35A controller to satisfy your need for speed?

 

[minime]

minime, read wordy's thread about the Oxygen
http://pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/oxygen-setting-help.27109/
That bike has a Bafang SWX02 motor and I think a 15A controller. Wordy derestricted it, got a buckled wheel in an afternoon and said afterward:

Are you sure you need 1,500W motor and a 48V 35A controller to satisfy your need for speed?

Under what conditions did he buckle his wheel? He doesn't specify. Was he going +30mph?

I intend to run the 1500w motor with a 48v 35A controller at 20/25 mph (max).

 

[Steve A]

View attachment 18121 View attachment 18121

if that is fast enough any bosch or Yamaha bike will do it with a dongle fitted climb any hill and i get about 25-35 miles range depending on what setting i use.

Sounds like your on your motor bike!