wheelbuilding question

[awol]

Jerry, you sound a bit more experienced at wheel building than me so one question on my mind when struggling with my last wheel is would you get the wheel/rim true first with the spoke tension still quite loose, in fact I was thinking as loose as possibly can hold the trueness/dish and then after that evenly tension the spokes up so many turns each?

 

[jerrysimon]

Yes I use that kind of method. The only oil in the ointment is that distressing the wheel between each full circle of tightening up nipples with equal turns, then tends to reintroduce imbalanced tension and it goes out of tru again. You then have to re tru and go round again turning each nipple equally de stress re tru and repeat until finally you are up to full tension.

Regards

Jerry

 

[jerrysimon]

Thanks for that information Jerry. I had sort of noticed those tension gauges, and wondered about them. Do they measure absolute tension, or is the result just a number so you can compare adjacent spokes? If it gives absolute values, does it come with a table of recommended tensions for different spoke lengths?

Yes it gives you a value. Here are the details


http://www.parktool.com/tm-1-tension-calculator

Jerry

 

[neptune]

Today, in between doing other things, I stripped the wheel and built it again. I am getting better, and quicker. It still needs further tensioning and truing, but that will be done tomorrow. My aim is to be able to lace a wheel without having to refer to books or videos.

I still need to make an adjustable dishing stick. My basic truing stand works well. I need to make a special screwdriver bit for nipples; this is just a straight screwdriver blade , ground to leave a pip in the middle, that fits into the hole and stops the blade slipping.

I have a good spoke key, that fits all sizes. The problem is that each time `I use it, I waste time looking for the correct slot. I have temporarily put tape over all the other slots, which helps. I need to but a single size key that fits only size 14.

Wheelbuilding is just part of project to ressurect old bikes to help relatives, friends and strangers. Out on my ride today, some kids had wrecked a bike and left it on the playing field. I had limited time, few tools, and it was raining, but I did manage to salvage two good tyres and tubes, and a rim tape.

Also had a bit of luck on facebook today. A guy advertised two bikes and some wheels and other spares . He put "free if collected within the hour." He lives only about 150 yards from me, so they are now in my shed. Tomorrow in day light, we will see what we have, but I expect to end up with at least one bike out of it.

 

[awol]

I too had the problem of wasting time looking for the correct spoke key slot every time so I got one of these which is much more comfortable to use too.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cyclepro-Spoke-Wrench-Key-Tool-Nipple-Various-Sizes-/140567504429?pt=UK_SportsLeisure_Cycling_BikeLocks_SR&var=&hash=item20ba79e62d

This wheel building video was my favorite and one I keep returning to.

 

[neptune]

@awol, I watched that video, and found it very informative. I learned something from it. He checks the dishing with a dishing stick by measuring from the spindle ends. If you are rebuilding a secondhand wheel, someone may have replaced the wheel bearings, and so there might be a different length of spindle sticking out each side. The advantage of this measuring method id that you can use the stick to check the dishing with the wheel in the stand. But you need to do the measuring always from the same side of the wheel, for the reasons above.

I have stripped and rebuilt my test wheel yet again. It is good enough to ride, but not perfect. I suspect that there is a limit to the number of times you can rebuild a wheel without distorting the rim somewhat. The thing is, it has served its purpose, in my education. It may get one more build. I am trying to gain enough confidence to rebuild the wheels of my regular pushbike, using stainless steel spokes. I am in no hurry, but I will get there.

 

[neptune]

I am at the stage now of ordering new spokes for my bike, I have come across a couple of problems. I removed three spokes from my bike, measured them and put them back in. The nipples are a bit tight and corroded, and I ended up rounding one off. Then I realised that while the number 14 slot in the spoke key fits, Number 15 ai a better fit, although tight. I had sort of assumed that spokes would be 14 gauge being a common size. So am I now to assume they are 15 gauge?

The measurements were, front wheel 288 mm. Rear wheel drive side, 286, Non drive side 288. Spokesave only sell the 288 in stainless. They say that as these spokes have a 12mm thread length, and the nipples are 12mm length and threaded right through, they recommend using the same spoke length on both sides of a rear wheel. Anyone have an opinion on this?

 

[awol]

I am at the stage now of ordering new spokes for my bike, I have come across a couple of problems. I removed three spokes from my bike, measured them and put them back in. The nipples are a bit tight and corroded, and I ended up rounding one off. Then I realised that while the number 14 slot in the spoke key fits, Number 15 ai a better fit, although tight. I had sort of assumed that spokes would be 14 gauge being a common size. So am I now to assume they are 15 gauge?

The measurements were, front wheel 288 mm. Rear wheel drive side, 286, Non drive side 288. Spokesave only sell the 288 in stainless. They say that as these spokes have a 12mm thread length, and the nipples are 12mm length and threaded right through, they recommend using the same spoke length on both sides of a rear wheel. Anyone have an opinion on this?

Personally I would still use the calculated spoke lengths.
I recon you have 14g spokes, my No15 key slot also fits my new 14g nipples, the reason is the sizes are so close and the key slots have about 0.1mm clearance on top so there is a slight overlap but a tighter fit is better so maybe use the 15 slot when you can. I also have a single slot 3.2mm for my 14g nipples and is a nice fit and more comfortable to use.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Bicycle-Spoke-Wrench-For-3-2mm-Spoke-Nipple-/141021326205?pt=UK_SportsLeisure_Cycling_BikeLocks_SR&hash=item20d586ab7d

Although I am no expert, one tip I would give is penetrating oil old nipples before trying to remove. Also when building grease the seating between the nipple and the rim and put a bit of oil on the spoke threads too.

 

[neptune]

Ok, I have taken the plunge and ordered new stainless spokes for my hybrid push bike. The old ones are still serviceable, but looking a bit corroded and tatty. The rear wheel has two different spoke lengths, 288mm on the non drive side, and 286 on the drive side. Spokesave do not sell 286mm spokes, and recommend using 288 on both sides.

They say that their spokes have a12mm long nipple and a 12mm long thread. I have decided to go with that. The rims are the double walled type, so even if I get 2mm or more thread sticking through the nipple, there is room for it without tube damage.

The technique I have been using on my practise wheel, is to lace the wheel, and then tighten all spokes so that the thread is just covered. On my bike wheel, I need to tighten the drive spokes an extra 2mm at this stage to compensate for their extra 2mm of length. How do you measure that?


Here is my method. Spoke threads on a 14 gauge spoke, are 56 threads to the inch, or 56 threads to 25.4 mm. So to shorten the spoke by one mm, , 56 divided by 25.4 =2.2 turns. So for two mm it is 4,4 turns, or four and a half turns in real money. I have a home made dishing stick to check results.

Any comments welcome.

 

[neptune]

Today I decided that I would take the plunge and rebuild the front wheel of my pushbike. My stainless steel spokes arrived several days ago, and I ran out of excuses. I now have the wheel rebuilt. It is true and round within about a mm. All spokes are reasonably tight, but the tension is not absolutely identical on all spokes, judged by the musical note. I expected this, as the hub and rim are second hand. Prior to the build, I dipped all spoke threads in olive oil, and allowed them to drain. The oil dries to a gummy deposit in a day or two, and acts as a thread lock. I plan to use the wheel for a bit before tackling the rear wheel, to make sure it remains true.

Here is a lesson I learned about double wall rims. It is possible to drop a spoke nipple so it falls inside the rim between the walls. They are difficult to locate and extract. Here is my solution. Take an old spoke and thread the nipple on it upside down. Holding the spoke, poke the nipple into position. The old spoke should only be threaded into the nipple a couple of turns. Do not remove the old spoke until the nipple is partly screwed onto the new spoke. I found it quite effective.

 

[neptune]

Yesterday, I finished rebuilding my rear wheel.As previously stated, I used all spokes of the same length. I used the method described in my last post to compensate for this, and it worked well. I used the calculated two and a half turns, but in practise, I had to add a further half turn to get the dishing right.

When the wheel was finished, it was noticeable that the nipples of the drive side spokes were screwed further into their nipples. This was to be expected, but none of them protruded above the nipple heads inside the rim. Not that it mattered, because with a double wall rim, the nipples are recessed well below the level of the rim tape.

The spokes are stainless steel ones from Spokesave. The only slight criticism I would make, is that in a packet of 36 spokes, exactly 36 nipples are supplied. So if you loose one, you have a problem. My problem was that one nipple was faulty, and had not been drilled right through. Luckily I had a spare one handy.

So that is both wheels rebuilt, and road tested. I am well pleased with the result. I polished the hubs while I had them stripped, and the wheels look stunning. If you are thinking of learning wheel building, give it a go. I would advise practicing on a scrap wheel to start with. It is all about persistence, being in no hurry, and above all, patience. Remember Sheldon Brown`s words. The perfect is the enemy of the good.

 

[neptune]

http://johnforester.com/Articles/BicycleEng/Wheel.htm

Here is a link to an explanation of how a wire spoked wheel "works" and how the various spokes change in tension as the wheel rotates.

 

[awol]

http://johnforester.com/Articles/BicycleEng/Wheel.htm

Here is a link to an explanation of how a wire spoked wheel "works" and how the various spokes change in tension as the wheel rotates.

An interesting article.