Wheel Building Help

[warlord0]

I need some advice on getting my wheels rebuilt. I'm not rebuilding myself, I don't have the skill.

The wheels on my Wisper 806 are in a shocking state. I've only had it 6 months (ok, it was an ex-demo) and they are very badly corroded and have had regular spoke failures. To the extent that on Wednesday I got 3 spokes failed, and the bike was not ridable.



After a visit to an LBS he wanted £2.50 per spoke as they'd need to be special Sapim e-bike spokes - that's £90 per wheel!!! I can buy the Sapim spokes myself for £1.15 + nipples.

I'd already taken the decision to buy new rims and have a set of Ryde Andura 40 (36H). But I notice the shape of the rim is different and will probably affect the length of spokes I need. I've seen some spoke calculators online, and scared myself.

TLDR;

How critical is it that I get the exact length of spokes? Can I take the existing 130mm length (rear) and just add a few millimetres? Is there an acceptable tolerance?

 

[Nealh]

Ebikes don't need ebike spokes, 14g spaim strongs are perfect for a nice spoke to build wheels with and after trying a few spokes is my choice of spoke.
Contact spokes from ryan or ryan builds wheels to get a quote.

Spokes need to be within a mm or two , if too long one runs out of thread .

 

[Nealh]

Use the spoke calcs , they do all the hard work for you to get the length right, if one wants a second opinion then post the details of the rim etc on here.

 

[saneagle]

I need some advice on getting my wheels rebuilt. I'm not rebuilding myself, I don't have the skill.

The wheels on my Wisper 806 are in a shocking state. I've only had it 6 months (ok, it was an ex-demo) and they are very badly corroded and have had regular spoke failures. To the extent that on Wednesday I got 3 spokes failed, and the bike was not ridable.

View attachment 58991

After a visit to an LBS he wanted £2.50 per spoke as they'd need to be special Sapim e-bike spokes - that's £90 per wheel!!! I can buy the Sapim spokes myself for £1.15 + nipples.

I'd already taken the decision to buy new rims and have a set of Ryde Andura 40 (36H). But I notice the shape of the rim is different and will probably affect the length of spokes I need. I've seen some spoke calculators online, and scared myself.

TLDR;

How critical is it that I get the exact length of spokes? Can I take the existing 130mm length (rear) and just add a few millimetres? Is there an acceptable tolerance?

You need three measurements to get the right spoke length: 1. Width of the hub's spoke flanges; 2. The pitch circle diameter of the holes in the spoke flanges; 3. Effective rim diameter (ERD). The rim listing should indicate the ERD, otherwise measure its internal diameter and add 4mm.

You then put those three numbers into the spoke calculator along with the number of spokes (36) and the spoke pattern (normally 2-cross, to get the length of the spokes.

Use ordinary 14g spokes or any 14g that take your fancy. Get them from Ryan.

Tel your wheelbuider that we said he's talking shite. Maybe he doesn't understand about motor wheels, so give him a chance. It would take a wheelbuilder about an hour to build such a wheel, so £50 max.

 

[Nealh]

Typo d8veh 14g not 24g.

 

[saneagle]

Typo d8veh 14g not 24g.

Thanks, I've edited it.

 

[Nealh]

Thanks, I've edited it.

Didn't want someone to try a bit of string only to find tension was an issue .

 

[matthewslack]

It is easier than you think to replace a spoke or build a wheel.

My two crutches of reassurance are (1) it does not need to be perfect in order to work and (2) spokes are thin and stretchy, rims are robust and stiff. You will not hurt the rim by getting the spokes not quite right.

When you have something just about good enough to ride on, take a breath, and leave the final quarter turn here and there for another day.

 

[warlord0]

It is easier than you think to replace a spoke or build a wheel.

My two crutches of reassurance are (1) it does not need to be perfect in order to work and (2) spokes are thin and stretchy, rims are robust and stiff. You will not hurt the rim by getting the spokes not quite right.

When you have something just about good enough to ride on, take a breath, and leave the final quarter turn here and there for another day.

My current rear wheel doesn't appear to meet the robust or stretchy requirements. More wobbly and snappy.

 

[warlord0]

You need three measurements to get the right spoke length: 1. Width of the hub's spoke flanges; 2. The pitch circle diameter of the holes in the spoke flanges; 3. Effective rim diameter (ERD). The rim listing should indicate the ERD, otherwise measure its internal diameter and add 4mm.

You then put those three numbers into the spoke calculator along with the number of spokes (36) and the spoke pattern (normally 2-cross, to get the length of the spokes.

Use ordinary 14g spokes or any 14g that take your fancy. Get them from Ryan.

Tel your wheelbuider that we said he's talking shite. Maybe he doesn't understand about motor wheels, so give him a chance. It would take a wheelbuilder about an hour to build such a wheel, so £50 max.

ERD from the Andra 40 spec.

Rear
1. Flange: 42mm
2. PCD: 126mm
3. ERD: 382mm

Front
1. Flange: 56mm
2. PCD: 60mm
3. ERD: 382mm

* Edited - no idea where I got the previous numbers from!

But I don't know about lacing pattern.

I did this for the rears. Some of the measurements don't seem that relevant, eg. lock nut to flange, and axel width - given that we have flange to centre.

#1 Wheel Building SPOKE CALCULATOR Now Online | PROWHEELBUILDER | Prowheelbuilder.com

This spoke calculator is provided only as a guide for your convenience in determining spoke lengths for your order. Select your components to quickly get a spoke length or you can enter them manually.

www.prowheelbuilder.com

I really appreciate your input. This bike is driving (or riding) me to my wits end. So much has required attention, I must get this right. I just want it to be reliable - it's my daily commute. Without it, getting to work takes way longer, and costs way more.

I double-checked with this https://spokelengthcalculator.com and get the same +/- 0.05mm 133.75

 

[thelarkbox]

when buying spokes i found amazon prime next day delivery and no quibble returns policy a VERY beneficial.

after a couple of attempts lacing a wheel with too short spokes i was as fast at the job as the guys in the 5 minutes youtube vids detailing the procedure..

When i finally zoned in on the right size.. i had that wheel in the forks ready for true-ing in 15 minutes,

btw trueing a wheel isnt that tricky either both lacing and trueing a wheel are in the 95-99% confidence to start 1-5% skill region of jobs imho and i am kak handed.

My own first attempt went very smoothly just as the step by step vids suggested.. i used the bikes front forks and clipped cable ties for guide markers,

I initially focused on getting the rim wobble free between the forks ignoring the roundness of the wheel but when i rode the wheel first i noticed the hump in the ride so 20 mins later i had that sorted too..


AND if you screw up, just start again.. I did have more than a couple of mis counts and attempts using the wrong spoke holes.. DOH!! just keep track of every spoke and nipple they send exactly 36x of each in each set NO extras.. and you can take as many attempts as it takes..

 

[Benjahmin]

There is all the info you need for wheel building at ebikes.ca, here:

Online Spoke Calculator for Hubmotors and Ebikes

Our handy spoke length calculator allows for easy calculation of spoke length for custom builds - and is the only one of its kind to include paired spoke holes in the flange as is common with many large diameter hub motors. It also creates an automatic side view drawing of the laced wheel and...

ebikes.ca

Top is the spoke calculator. If you scroll down the page there are 3 video's covering measuring and building a wheel from scratch. I used them and built my first wheel around 9 months ago. It really isn't as hard as you've been led to believe.

 

[Nealh]

For a cross pattern one needs a very shallow nipple entry angle about 5 degrees is ok. For small wheels then one is looking at a 1x lacing .
The 1x, 2x , 3x is how many times a spoke crosses over other spokes .

 

[warlord0]

For a cross pattern one needs a very shallow nipple entry angle about 5 degrees is ok. For small wheels with a hub motor or hub gears then one is looking at a 1x lacing .
The 1x, 2x , 3x is how many times a spoke crosses the next spoke it is paired with.

That makes sense. Thank you.

The current state of my ride

 

[saneagle]

ERD from the Andra 40 spec.

Rear
1. Flange: 200mm
2. PCD: 485mm
3. ERD: 382mm

Front
1. Flange: 240mm
2. PCD: 225mm
3. ERD: 382mm

But I don't know about lacing pattern.

I did this for the rears. Some of the measurements don't seem that relevant, eg. lock nut to flange, and axel width - given that we have flange to centre.

#1 Wheel Building SPOKE CALCULATOR Now Online | PROWHEELBUILDER | Prowheelbuilder.com

This spoke calculator is provided only as a guide for your convenience in determining spoke lengths for your order. Select your components to quickly get a spoke length or you can enter them manually.

www.prowheelbuilder.com

View attachment 58999

I really appreciate your input. This bike is driving (or riding) me to my wits end. So much has required attention, I must get this right. I just want it to be reliable - it's my daily commute. Without it, getting to work takes way longer, and costs way more.

I double-checked with this https://spokelengthcalculator.com and get the same +/- 0.05mm 133.75

Have a look at the spoke pattern you already have and count the number of times each spoke crosses the other, including the cross very close to the hub if you have it.

You don't seem to understand pitch circle diameter. It's the diameter of the circle made by the centres of the spoke-holes in the flange on the motor. It's around 100 to 120mm for your average hub-motors. You need that measurement, the width between the flanges, the ERD and the number of crosses in your chosen spoke pattern. The more crosses, the better the ride, but the angle of the spokes coming out of the rim is too much for some rims when you have three-cross.

 

[Sturmey]

......... Can I take the existing 130mm length (rear) and just add a few millimetres?........

I do that all the time when I am not changing the spoke pattern, which is single cross or 1x in your case (from recent photo). Firstly check that the original spokes were a proper fit in the first place and then measure them accuratly from the inside of the 'j' curve and the spoke end. The drive and non drive side may be slightly different.
Next, compare the cross section height/depth of your old rim to your newer rim. Use the difference in these two measurements to add/subtract to the old spoke length.
So for example, if your old rim is 25mm cross section height/depth and the new rim as illustrated below is 21mm, then you need approximately 4 mm longer spoke.
However, more accurately measure the distance between the outer rim top and the spoke nipple bed for each rim as there may be small differences e.g eyelets/raised spoke bed.
Also dont trust quoted ERD (effective rim diameter) figures. Measure the actual rim.
But go ahead with the rim calculator if you want (and compare the figures) but I think its only necessary for new hub or when changing the spoke pattern.

OLD RIM example below



NEW RIM example below

 

[warlord0]

I do that all the time when I am not changing the spoke pattern, which is single cross or 1x in your case (from recent photo). Firstly check that the original spokes were a proper fit in the first place and then measure them accuratly from the inside of the 'j' curve and the spoke end. The drive and non drive side may be slightly different.
Next, compare the cross section height/depth of your old rim to your newer rim. Use the difference in these two measurements to add/subtract to the old spoke length.
So for example, if your old rim is 25mm cross section height/depth and the new rim as illustrated below is 21mm, then you need approximately 4 mm longer spoke.
However, more accurately measure the distance between the outer rim top and the spoke nipple bed for each rim as there may be small differences e.g eyelets/raised spoke bed.
Also dont trust quoted ERD (effective rim diameter) figures. Measure the actual rim.
But go ahead with the rim calculator if you want (and compare the figures) but I think its only necessary for new hub or when changing the spoke pattern.

OLD RIM example below



NEW RIM example below

Those images are almost exactly what I'm changing from/to.

Measured rim and confirmed 382mm. Remeasured everything else and have no idea what numbers I came up with before. Must have been blind! PCD was bigger than ERD!!

 

[Sturmey]

sjs cycles do 14g 132mm or 134mm spokes (including nipple) for 50p each.

Brompton Spoke / Nipple Plain Gauge 132mm Silver

Single stainless steel spoke. Includes nipple. Weighs 3 Grams For 2013> Shimano dynamo front wheels. Shimano hub dynamo, double wall rim (standard drilling) and 1-cross drilling Please note Brompton have selling restrictions to some countries who have their own dealers. If you are unsure...

www.sjscycles.co.uk

Jtek 14g Stainless Plain Gauge Spokes & 12 mm Brass Nipples - Pack Of 6 | Spokes - Plain Gauge | SJS Cycles

Top quality Sandvik T302 (18/10) Stainless Steel & Brass Nipples. Patented cold forged technology. Up to 20% more strength without increasing weight. Thread Rolled (BC 56, DIN 79012 ) FG2.3, this means that you can use Sapim or DT nipples if you prefer.

www.sjscycles.co.uk

 

[Nealh]

The motor wheel is 1x , one can go 1x or simply go radial.
The non motor wheel appears to be 2x.,

 

[Nealh]

Once one follows wheel lacing vids and has the wheel laced and loosely tightend the spoke nipples then the trueing of the wheels is done in the drops outs once the wheel is fitted back in correctly.
One can center the wheel perfectly then, to get the rim evenly trued use a cable tie around the fork /stay on one side only. Evenly do up the nipples (not tight) so the wheel is central and cut the tail end of the cable tie so it just touches the rim , thuis is then your guide to tightning and loosening opposing nipples to keep the rim central . As one tightens the nipples one will slowly rotate the wheel to see where the rim touches very lightly rubs the cable tie. Patience is needed (I find the practice very relaxing and therapeutic ) one will soon learn thta tightning a certain nipple too much will either move the rim too far one way so one loosens it and tightens the opposing side instead.
When one is fine tuning the wheel trueing a 1/16th or 1/8th turn of the nipple is plenty each time.

Aussie lacing vid.
The process is the same what ever the lacing x.