What use are hybrid vehicles really?

[Benjahmin]

We are approaching the time when we will have to change our much loved Vitara. It's been a very capable car with 4WD capability that has towed trailer loads of logs off muddy fields for us. But it's a 2L diesel.
Ageing means that this sort of activity may soon be beyond me, so willing to choose a car that is just transport.
I live in a very rural part of Wales and have no garage or on drive parking, I think the nearest public charging point may be Swansea, so pure electric vehicle doesn't seem possible - yet!
So my mind turns to hybrids. This is where I need some help, 'cos it seems to me that they carry a lot of extra weight (and initial cost) for no gain. Am I right in thinking that a hybrid has a standard engine/gearbox/diff drive train, PLUS an electic motor/generator and battery? If this is so they seem an expensive sideline technology that carries the extra weight of the electric drive train that must add to fuel consumption - where's the gain?
Have I got the the wrong view of the technology?

 

[flecc]

We are approaching the time when we will have to change our much loved Vitara. It's been a very capable car with 4WD capability that has towed trailer loads of logs off muddy fields for us. But it's a 2L diesel.
Ageing means that this sort of activity may soon be beyond me, so willing to choose a car that is just transport.
I live in a very rural part of Wales and have no garage or on drive parking, I think the nearest public charging point may be Swansea, so pure electric vehicle doesn't seem possible - yet!
So my mind turns to hybrids. This is where I need some help, 'cos it seems to me that they carry a lot of extra weight (and initial cost) for no gain. Am I right in thinking that a hybrid has a standard engine/gearbox/diff drive train, PLUS an electic motor/generator and battery? If this is so they seem an expensive sideline technology that carries the extra weight of the electric drive train that must add to fuel consumption - where's the gain?
Have I got the the wrong view of the technology?

You're speaking of the non-plug in hybrids like the original Toyota Prius. Moderately driven they do gain more miles per gallon through recovery, where the brakes would formerly have been used with that energy wasted as heat and wear.

Toyota for example claimed 82 mpg, but owners typically get far less than that, claiming in the 50s or low 60s, so similar to some of the better diesels. But the moderate driving is important as the Top Gear crowd showed by driving one quite hard and only getting 37 mpg which is very ordinary.

They aren't hybrids anyway since they only have one fuel, petrol, the electricity only generated from energy put in in the first place by petrol. However they are economical for most so are popular with minicab drivers in London. Slowing by motor braking and recharging really does work well, the difference between Normal and Eco mode on my Leaf is very noticeable, the brakes almost never needed in Eco mode driving, with a moderate gain in range and brake pads that will last almost for ever.

It's a pity though that you can't have charging access since the plug-in hybrids make more sense, able to electric drive cover 25 to 30 urban miles at town speeds so taking care of the great majority of journeys cleanly at very low cost.
.

 

[Fat Rat]

I personally wouldn’t go hybrid there’s no gain for complexity over a Petrol
If you can’t go full electric get yourself a frugal petrol car
There’s a load about that do 40-50 plus mpg and when you have the potential problems a hybrid will bring in comparison there not worth it
In my eyes there a half arsed attempt to make you feel good about yourself with no gain

 

[Ocsid]

Not of any relevance to those dwelling in rural Wales, or me, but I thought some hybrids were squeezing under the London Congestion Charge emissions point?

So whilst of questionable physical merit there could be a very big plus on running costs for those effected.

 

[flecc]

Not of any relevance to those dwelling in rural Wales, or me, but I thought some hybrids were squeezing under the London Congestion Charge emissions point?

So whilst of questionable physical merit there could be a very big plus on running costs for those effected.

Non-plug in hybrids like the standard Toyota Prius have no chance of escaping the congestion charge.

Many plug in ones can but it's often very marginal. For example, choose a higher spec model with larger alloy wheels and you can lose the exemption since their CO2 figure can tip over the line.
.

 

[Deleted member 128]

Plug-in hybrids overcome range anxiety and there's an ever widening choice, Auto Express rates these cars for 2018:

Top 10 best plug-in hybrids to buy now
1. BMW i3 REx
2. MINI Countryman S E
3. Hyundai Ioniq PHEV
4. Toyota Prius PHV
5. BMW 330e
6. Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV
7. Volkswagen Passat GTE
8. Volvo XC60 T8 Twin Engine
9. Mercedes-Benz C350e
10. Porsche Panamera S E-Hybrid

The economics of car ownership depends so much on expected mileage though, for high mileage, eg 50K+ per year, on fast roads a diesel might still be the cheapest.

For low mileage, eg 5K/year, on a range of roads I wonder if there's much to choose between petrol, hybrid and pure electric given that the annual cost of petrol would be around £800 for a car averaging 40mpg covering 5K miles. Over 10 years that's £8000 which is is still significantly less than the typical total cost of purchasing, insuring, taxing and maintaining a vehicle.

I come across people who spend large amounts of money replacing their cars for ones that are a few mpg more efficient thinking they'll save lots of money on fuel when they'll actually only save a small fraction of what they're spending on the replacement cars.

I'm still not convinced on the economics of hybrids and pure electrics for my own use where I live in the countryside, do a very low mileage and make a few 800+ mile return journeys a year. There are serious environmental issues to also consider of course, particularly in cities and close to busy roads, and if I lived in a city and used a car often for short journeys I'd go pure electric.

 

[flecc]

I'm still not convinced on the economics of hybrids and pure electrics for my own use where I live in the countryside, do a very low mileage and make a few 800+ mile return journeys a year. There are serious environmental issues to also consider of course, particularly in cities and close to busy roads, and if I lived in a city and used a car often for short journeys I'd go pure electric.

Away from London's congestion charges, you're right, there is no economic case for pure electric or plug in hybrid below about 5000 miles per annum. Both will ultimately be more expensive whether in the countryside or city and in economic terms my Leaf is simply an indulgent luxury.

But of course they can be more environmentally friendly, especially in polluted hotspots like some of the roads in my area and London in general. So I take pleasure from the fact that all the many children and cyclists where I drive aren't having to breathe in large quantities of noxious substances caused by my travel. And there's also the pleasure of the superior driving aspects that a pure electric car brings, the silky smooth controllability and silence among others. Those aren't readily expressed in monetary terms on a balance sheet but their value is very real, for me and for everyone in the vicinity of my driving.
.

 

[Benjahmin]

But as I said pure electric is out for me.
I'm interested in the technology itself. Is it, as I think, two complete drive trains on a hybrid or PHEV? Why are more not like the BMW, which seems to be an elecric drive train with a I.C. generator on board. Doesn't that make more sense?
For me, I really can't see the sense of lugging all that extra weight around for a 30 mile electric range. As others have implied, it really does seem to be pandering to the sense righteousness garnered from the badge. I think these folks are being ripped of with their full permission.

 

[Trevormonty]

But as I said pure electric is out for me.
I'm interested in the technology itself. Is it, as I think, two complete drive trains on a hybrid or PHEV? Why are more not like the BMW, which seems to be an elecric drive train with a I.C. generator on board. Doesn't that make more sense?
For me, I really can't see the sense of lugging all that extra weight around for a 30 mile electric range. As others have implied, it really does seem to be pandering to the sense righteousness garnered from the badge. I think these folks are being ripped of with their full permission.

There are also electric cars with range extender petrol motors, similar to BMW. The petrol motor drives generator and doesn't necessary produce enough power to maintain high speeds without slowly discard batteries. If battery is getting low you have to two choices drive slower or pull over for a while.

 

[flecc]

But as I said pure electric is out for me.
I'm interested in the technology itself. Is it, as I think, two complete drive trains on a hybrid or PHEV? Why are more not like the BMW, which seems to be an elecric drive train with a I.C. generator on board. Doesn't that make more sense?
For me, I really can't see the sense of lugging all that extra weight around for a 30 mile electric range. As others have implied, it really does seem to be pandering to the sense righteousness garnered from the badge. I think these folks are being ripped of with their full permission.

See this link's opening paragraphs to see the three ways these hybrid systems can work, integrated, parallel or series.

The BMW i3 range extender is a series type, albeit a very poor one. Two others are the Chevrolet Volt and the Chinese BYD, and as the article says, this method is quite rare, (to which I'd add because of the disadvantages).

The benefits from the extra weight and cost of a plug-in hybrid are environmental in large towns and cities. Many streets are breaching pollution safety limits, including alongside primary schools where that does the most harm, and traffic noise is a major problem in city "canyons" between buildings.

The plug-in hybrid in electric only mode for all the urban trips relieves both problems, and the economy when running in electric mode is a small offset for the cost of purchase. Some of these users almost never have the petrol engine running, for example a woman who uses hers for shopping, running the kids to school and activities, visiting local friends, relatives, library, gym etc.

The non plug-in "hybrid" is no more help to the environment than one of the better economy i.c. cars and no local help at all.
.

 

[Benjahmin]

That's great Flecc, thanks.
So it would seem that my surmize is on the right lines. A hybrid is lugging around a 'dead' power train, that's to say if using elecric the IC engine/gearbox etc. is not active, therefore just ballast. If using I.C. then the electric motor and battery are dead weight, regenerative braking notwithstanding.
So surely the extra mpg from the I.C. system is merely from the design of a modern more frugal engine, and would be even better without the battery/motor combo.
I take the point about urban 'canyon' pollution. But it puts the onus on the strength of individual enviromental passion. In the case of young families struggling to even afford a house (rented or bought) I don't think this is going to play well.
What you say, Flecc, does make the case for the two car household being one electric, one I.C. Though, again, with most younger people being on older cars, don't see it happening quickly enough.

For myself, I have never bought a new car. Income has never been big enough to stand that kind of depreciation. We currently run the Vitara and a Renault Master. Vitara (which we bought second hand 12 years ago) is near end of life and, theoretically, I'm past retirement. Current thinking is to go for a small car for local stuff and replace Master with something like a Trafic for hauling and longer journey's. Can't go for any kind of plug in because of house fronting directly onto a road.
Seems like I will be a reluctant major polluter for some years to come.
Bring on the Hydrogen cell !

 

[flecc]

So surely the extra mpg from the I.C. system is merely from the design of a modern more frugal engine, and would be even better without the battery/motor combo.

It's not quite as straightforward as it might seem. Take the Toyota Prius for example. To really be a good performer it really needs either a two litre engine or a high performing 1.5 litre.

But instead it uses a modified Atkinson cycle 1.5 litre engine so is underpowered for more challenging circumstances. That's when the electric motor joins in to supplement it, the combination bringing its power well up to what's needed.

Since challenging circumstances are a minority of the time, its limited but very economical 1.5 litre engine is enough at other times both to propel it and put a little charge into the battery. Braking puts in further charge, so when the electricity is needed it's there ready and is even able to propel it alone at times to limit pollution and improve mpg.

The outcome for the system is a very high mpg that i.c. cars generally struggle to match. And that's without ever plugging in.

i've covered the parallel plug-in models above, but now to the serious series plug-in ones like the Chevrolet Volt and BYD. They are powerful electric cars with enough battery to give around 60 to 80 miles range. On journeys when the battery is running out their powerful two litre engines cut in, driving a generator that continues to supply the car at full electric performance.

So yes, there's lots in there, electric motor, very big battery, petrol engine, generator etc, all adding up to a lot of weight. But the gain is that most of anyone's mileage is electric at far lower cost than petrol or diesel.

Remember how low plug-in cost can be. If I switched to GreenEnergy's very low late night rate of 4.99 pence per kW to charge my car, I'd be running at 400 mpg equivalence to petrol cost. So you can see that even a plug in hybrid, for many doing most of it's journeys on electric drive, can be a serious saving.
.