What is the future of E-bikes ?

[rog_london]

Huhh why need to split frame ? Just replace chain cogs with ones for belts an fits just like a chain.

Think about it! The rear sprocket is inside the drop outs and so inside the frame - the chainwheel is outside the frame. You need to be able to split the chain somehow to fit it unless you have a removable rear subframe. Some 'full sus' mountain bikes may accommodate this, but a normal one piece bike frame (rigid rear) definitely doesn't.

It's similar on a motorbike - to fit a non-splittable chain means you have to remove the swing arm. A real pain. Been there, done that. A drive belt is manufactured as a complete ring and that's what you're stuck with.

Rog.

 

[flecc]

Of course would have to be hub geared (or does it)

And of course so much cleaner than chain for clothing etc. It does have to be a hub gear/NuVinci, though there has been a design attempt at a form of expanding rear sprocket with jockey arm for belts. Looked too heavy and complex though, plus very limited gear range.
.

 

[smudger1956]

IMHO, I agree with all points made regarding the performance and reliability aspects.
The future should be aimed at getting Pedelecs more established as a real transport alternative.
We are well behind other European countries in promoting Pedelecs and EV’s.

 

[catsnapper]

Come on folks, where have you been looking? There are quite a few hub geared, belt drive (usually Gates, but Phil Wood is also supplying parts) bikes already on the market
Add a decent front wheel kit and you're away.

Plenty of people have converted frames, or you can buy one already adapted and build you're own bike from scratch....it's not so difficult

Alan

 

[GaRRy]

It's similar on a motorbike - to fit a non-splittable chain means you have to remove the swing arm.

Rog.

Which bike is that in 30 + years never needed to do that. Rear wheel and a load of other stuff but never whole swing arm.

Don't disbelieve you just never had the joy

 

[GaRRy]

Come on folks, where have you been looking? There are quite a few hub geared, belt drive (usually Gates, but Phil Wood is also supplying parts) bikes already on the market
Alan

Not suprised but never really been heavely into bikes and so far not really mainstream.

 

[mike killay]

I have just been reading 'Motorcycle Cavalcade' by Ixion, pub. 1950
He was there at the start of motor cycling. He tells a similar story to our recent history of e-bikes. At first, manufacturers wanted to build powered cycles, perhaps beefing their frames up a bit. But as the output of the motors grew, the standard cycle parts soon fell to bits with the vibration etc.
Perhaps our case is not so bad seeing how smooth electric motors are, however, as Flecc has pointed out, all the hard learned lessons of 1900-1914 had to be re-learned in the 1940s.
Once again, reliablity will come at the price of weight. Fortunately, we do have better metallurgy these days, but at present, the cycling world is full of the quest for even less weight, even if that means more frequent servicing.
Electric bikes could accept a small weight penalty, because as far as I know, no-one has tried to race them in the way the early motor cycles and later the mopeds were. It was racing and long distance trials that sounded the death knell for insufficiently robust parts.
I know that some on here demand racing bike weights for e-bikes, but the question remains, 'Does what is considered high end equipment for a bike have enough stamina for an e-bike?'

 

[flecc]

Come on folks, where have you been looking?

Alan

I know there's been a small number of attempts Alan, but they haven't really taken off. Even in really large dealers I've never seen one stocked. Belt drives could be popular in the utility e-bike market which seems to be a natural home for them, but I don't know of any, not even in Europe's main cycling countries.

Here in the UK, I daresay the usual conservatism of the bike market which holds back e-bikes here is just as likely to impede belt drive adoption. For myself, having worked with a variety of belt drives for a number of years so knowing far more than most about them, I'm not a fan.

 

[eddieo]

an old chap had a Sparta petrol bike on site I was on in Spain. never got a picture as he was to fast! It was very old and cost him £130. It was very civilised and reliable according to chap, more a phut phut sound, not disturbing, unlike these 50cc scooters that are popular.

you can ride these in Europe just like an e bike...it makes no sense whatsoever that we cant ride them here.

 

[flecc]

you can ride these in Europe just like an e bike...it makes no sense whatsoever that we cant ride them here.

I not so sure they are legal there either Eddie. The difference may be the policing, they can be more liberal than us in southern EU countries whne it come to the rules.

 

[Eaglerider]

The Future,

I think its bright, very bright. The technology we are now using and the market as it is will expand ever further. The knowledge base will drive larger machines, full blown motorcycles and eventually cars. It all hangs on battery development, but it will happen.

I happen to know personally the guy who has been racing an electric motorcycle for two years now. He has alluded to a motor that looks like a very fat multiplate clutch. Allegedly the torque this device produces is colossal. With the inevitable advances in current storage, I believe in 15 years, (if I last that long), I will be riding an electric motorcycle as a normal routine transport device.

Setting aside the merits of various methods used to generate the electricity we need, E-bikes are extremely efficient in terms of how far you can travel on a very small amount of, relatively cheap' power. This alone makes E-Bikes virtually inescapable for most in the long run.

The key drivers for all of this will be fuel costs and rapidly increasing population density. For E-Bikes such as ours, I think this will continue to expand, although real growth will only get going when Local Councils start making cycling infrastructure a major priority.

Predominantly warm weather has to be another factor, so wet and cold districts may not flourish as well as sunny seaside towns.

Overall, the future looks very good, I've had a bucket load of fun already, and there's lots more to come. It's all rather exciting!

 

[jasono]

Hi the improvements I would like to see have already been mentioned...

Lighter bikes and better range & longer lasting batteries

Mind you if i'd have said that 5 years ago, i'm sure I would be in Utopia by now with how bikes and battery technologies have developed!

 

[flecc]

Setting aside the merits of various methods used to generate the electricity we need, E-bikes are extremely efficient in terms of how far you can travel on a very small amount of, relatively cheap' power. This alone makes E-Bikes virtually inescapable for most in the long run.
For E-Bikes such as ours, I think this will continue to expand, although real growth will only get going when Local Councils start making cycling infrastructure a major priority.

I've always been of the view that it is the e-moped that will be the real winner, the past showing us this. Sixty and more years ago petrol cyclemotors and autocycles were the e-bike equivalents, but it was the first scooters (mopeds) like the Vespa and Lambretta that wiped them out.

If, and it's a big if, batteries really do advance considerably, that will suit the e-moped even more than the e-bike. It's human nature for most to prefer the lazy option of not pedalling, and also the better weather protection of a moped.

The outcome could well be that e-bikes fall back to an enthusiast only position.

 

[neptune]

The remarkable thing about the future is that we have no way of knowing what it will be. All we can say for sure is that it will different from what we imagine, and most likely different from what we are capable of imagining. Think of electric motors of the 1950s. At the time, that represented 100 years of research and development. Who would have imagined then that new magnetic materials would be discovered that would render field coils obsolete. No sooner had we embraced that technology, than along came power Mosfets, enabling us to run AC motors cheaply on DC , and rendering brushes obsolete . Briefly we used hall sensors for commutation, only for that idea to be replaced by more sophisticated methods .

To pretend that motor development has reached its zenith would be arrogant. My view on battery development , although controversial, is that we aint seen nothing yet.The future is not what it used to be!

 

[catsnapper]

Here in the UK, I daresay the usual conservatism of the bike market which holds back e-bikes here is just as likely to impede belt drive adoption. For myself, having worked with a variety of belt drives for a number of years so knowing far more than most about them, I'm not a fan.

Hi Tony

I'm not a fan either, having been involved in all sorts of drive systems in a different field.
I was simply making the point that they're available, and have a dedicated but small following.

I'm not so sure it's conservatism in the bike market that is the main problem, but this has been discussed so many times I doubt there is anything new to say

I'm quite happy to follow my own path and help others that try to do the same, rather than follow the dictats of corporations or politicians


Alan

 

[GaRRy]

Hate to be pedantic but scooters (e.g. vespas and lambrettas) were never mopeds and certainly never killed them off. A scooter is a different beast altogether (basically small wheeled an with enclosed engine etc and leg shields although a true scooter also usually has the engine at the rear of vehicle).

A moped was originally a MOtorised PEDal cycle with a engine no bigger than 50cc. So cyclemotors and autocycles were therefore mopeds (and if you can find one old enough may even still be road legal(pre change of law in 70's)).

This continued until late 70's when with development of mopeds like yamaha FS1E (the infamous "fizzy" and boy did i love mine and for the prices they go now wish i still had it), suzuki ap 50 and honda ss50 all capable of well over 45 mph and basically small motorcycles although technically could still be peddled but i doubt anyone ever mad enough to try. The law was then changed to redefine them as not capable of more than 30 mph and removed the need to be pedalled.

So in reality Mopeds have never gone away just morphed into something else. Ironically now more likely to be scooter like in design with small wheels as what the point of a bike that looks like a full blown motor bike and only capable of 30 mph. The main killer of mopeds (and scooters and motorbikes) has been the motor car which now out numbers motorcycles 100 to 1.

I do think the moped could rise again as a electric version with a range of 100 miles or so but would fully expect it to have all the rules of current mopeds (30 mph,license,road tax,MOT etc). Which is also why Ebikes will never be allowed to do 30mph .

 

[flecc]

I'm quite happy to follow my own path and help others that try to do the same, rather than follow the dictats of corporations or politicians


Alan

There was a time when this could be considered almost treason, but the events of recent years are rapidly making it received wisdom!

 

[amigafan2003]

I'm quite happy to follow my own path and help others that try to do the same, rather than follow the dictats of corporations or politicians

I agree wholeheartedly

 

[flecc]

Hate to be pedantic but scooters (e.g. vespas and lambrettas) were never mopeds and certainly never killed them off. A scooter is a different beast altogether (basically small wheeled an with enclosed engine etc and leg shields although a true scooter also usually has the engine at the rear of vehicle).

A moped was originally a MOtorised PEDal cycle with a engine no bigger than 50cc. So cyclemotors and autocycles were therefore mopeds.

Scooters did kill off the add-on petrol-motors for bikes Garry, known because I was in the trade dealing with both at the time. I think you may have misread my post.

I agree on the true meaning of moped, but its a waste of time arguing the point since the old Ministry of Transport adopted the term moped for scooters. Moped is now the generally accepted name. Scooter is of course just as incorrect for such as the Vespa, scooters being pavement small-wheeled stand-on "hobby horses". The whole naming thing for light two wheeled utility machines is a mess, even our world having no universally accepted name, main candidates being pedelec, e-bike and EAPC. The first is technically correct for they are all pedelecs, the second is wrong since none are true electric bikes, they only electric assist, and the third is correct but cumbersome (Electric Assist Pedal Cycle).

 

[GaRRy]

Scooters did kill off the add-on petrol-motors for bikes Garry, known because I was in the trade dealing with both at the time. I think you may have misread my post.

I bow to your superior knowledge and experience but to me those early add on motors are what morphed into mopeds (after all things like puch maxis etc were still pretty much beefed up cycles with add on engine).

But boy did mopeds roar back for a while in the 70's .

I think scooters (as in vespas etc) are called scooters because you can hop on and of them and also have small wheels just like a push scooter. I guess also at a push if broke down you could actually scoot one.