What do you recommend?

[Dynamic Position]

I need to replace my Raleigh P4000 bicycle which is now well worn after having competed over 8000 miles over the past 5.5 years. Most of the miles were clocked up commuting 4 miles each-way to and from work throughout the years in all seasons/weather conditions.

I had considered buying a Revolution Country Explorer from The Edinburgh Bike Company, but have had to rethink/research alternative bicycles because my commuting distance will increase to 12 miles each-way in approx. 18 months time and I too am showing signs of aging (high blood pressure)!
I cannot try before I buy as I do not have access to a stockist of electric bicyles so I am reliant on an internet purchase. With different types of powered bicycles to choose from, I was hoping that the field could be somewhat narrowed by asking for recommendations.


My preference for bicycles is for it to look and handle like a normal bicycle as far as possible with up-right handle bars, full mud-guards and pannier. The bike must be suitable for prolonged wet conditions as it will be parked exposed to the elements at work: A power assisted bike would need to have a waterproof I.P. rating for all the electrical system, including times when the battery is removed.

I had thought the Cytronex bikes would be have been suitable, but apparently these have to be collected in person. Would it be worth purchasing a Cytronex kit and fitting it to the Revolution Country Explorer or would I be better purchasing another brand?

 

[Bigbee]

Is there a Cytronex kit?

 

[flecc]

Is there a Cytronex kit?

One is intended, but I don't know if it's available yet.

Dynamic Position, if you don't mind slower pedalling cadences, the Panasonic drive through gears bikes like the Kalkhoff Agattu C and Pro Connect will meet your requirements for full road equipment and near perfect waterproofing, even including immersion. However, the full power assistance is only available up to a pedalling cadence of 40 rpm, thereafter gradually reducing down to zero power added at a cadence of 65 rpm.
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[seca-seca]

65rpm-does that means 65 revolutions of the pedals? As that seems quite slow. What does changing the sprocket do? When I watch the video of prestegne on youtube the Kalkhoffs on there seem to be being pedalled alot faster than 65rpm.

 

[flecc]

65rpm-does that means 65 revolutions of the pedals? As that seems quite slow. What does changing the sprocket do? When I watch the video of prestegne on youtube the Kalkhoffs on there seem to be being pedalled alot faster than 65rpm.

Yes, 65 revolutions per minute, quite a lot slower than the optimum efficiency of nearer 90 rpm. Bikes like the Kalkhoffs with this unit can be pedalled without power assist to as much as is wanted of course, and I think at least one of the Kalkhoffs at Presteigne was very non-standard. The Panasonic unit is designed primarily as a utility bike unit and not modelled on sporting use, so the slow cadences are entirely commensurate with that use.

The UK illegal high speed "S" versions do permit higher cadences but I don't know the power proportions and cadence points on those as they aren't normally sold into our market.

Changing the sprocket doesn't alter the cadence to motor relationship, though the cutoff speed points move upwards. You can read a description of the standard unit's working in my article here.
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[Patrick]

I cannot try before I buy as I do not have access to a stockist of electric bicyles so I am reliant on an internet purchase. With different types of powered bicycles to choose from, I was hoping that the field could be somewhat narrowed by asking for recommendations.

I would recomend that you get a digital subscription of A-to-B magazine

A to B magazine, folding bikes, electric bicycles, trailers, sister publication to Miniature Railway magazine

That will give you access to all the back issues from August 2006, the reivews in there are the next best thing to trying the bikes out.

(Having just finished my first week of commuting 10 miles each way on a Powabyke X6 I'd say that that's worth considering as well.)

Patrick

 

[Dynamic Position]

Thankyou Flecc & Patrick for your replies. It is apparent that there is a large emerging electric bicycle market and lots of electrically assisted bicycles to choose from. Having spent some time looking through the Pedelecs Forum I got the impression that electric bicycles should now be taken seriously as a commuting option.
I was smitten by the possibilities of the Kalkoff, but remain unsure of the gearing arrangement (from perspective of being used to a 21-speed unassisted bicycle); I also got the impression that 36 Volt systems are technically superior, but the Kakhoff range has remained offering the 24 Volt system; I guess this is why everyone recommends try before you buy.
Reviews of Cytronex system and user experiences are also encouraging and I think this may entice cyclists to add this as an upgrade/option.
In Europe we seem to be restricted by legislation: I think that if it were possible to tax and insure electric bicycles for lesser restricted road use then it might take off as a serious alternative.
The technology is available for some serious electric bicycles with 3-year battery life, the best I have found shows what is possible: Optibike - High Performance Electric Bikes, Finest Electrical Motorized Bike, Fastest Electric Powered Bicycle - Home

 

[Mussels]

Thankyou Flecc & Patrick for your replies. It is apparent that there is a large emerging electric bicycle market and lots of electrically assisted bicycles to choose from. Having spent some time looking through the Pedelecs Forum I got the impression that electric bicycles should now be taken seriously as a commuting option.
I was smitten by the possibilities of the Kalkoff, but remain unsure of the gearing arrangement (from perspective of being used to a 21-speed unassisted bicycle); I also got the impression that 36 Volt systems are technically superior, but the Kakhoff range has remained offering the 24 Volt system; I guess this is why everyone recommends try before you buy.
Reviews of Cytronex system and user experiences are also encouraging and I think this may entice cyclists to add this as an upgrade/option.
In Europe we seem to be restricted by legislation: I think that if it were possible to tax and insure electric bicycles for lesser restricted road use then it might take off as a serious alternative.
The technology is available for some serious electric bicycles with 3-year battery life, the best I have found shows what is possible: Optibike - High Performance Electric Bikes, Finest Electrical Motorized Bike, Fastest Electric Powered Bicycle - Home

Optibike do produce a road legal version but last time I looked the UK importer didn't sell it in the UK, just the incredibly expensive version which is likely to get you nicked. I don't know why they don't sell a legal version, maybe the reality is not as good as the hype. And I'm sure if the other manufacturers were asked to produce a high performance ebike with an RRP of £8,000 some would produce far better bikes.
Rear hub motor bikes can also have limited gearing choices as can bikes with mid mounted batteries so it's worth having a good look.
The Cytronex Trek looks very good if you don't need much range, now I have plenty of cycling experience these would be a favourite if I was looking for a new ebike.
The Wisper 905 I have now was ideal to get me started and exercising without having a heart attack and it is still working well for me as my ability goes up but it is restricted to seven gears, I've changed the ratios so that the gears I have cover everything I need but it would be nice not to freewheel above 30mph.

 

[flecc]

The "try before you buy" recommendation is because of the very real differences in the way the different types work, a "Marmite" thing. The battery voltage isnt necessarily relevant, a 24 volt bike can be more powerful than a 36 volt one since it's Wattage that represents the power of each, though in practice most 36 volt systems tend to be the more powerful.

It is possible to tax and insure faster and more powerful e-bikes in the EU. Manufacturers can get type approval for suitable models as moped class, and personal constructors can get Single Vehicle Type Approval, though it does cost the user to do that. However the general view is that there is no point. Why would anyone choose a slower, less comfortable and less weather protected bike over a moped, especially since the latter is often cheaper, even in electric versions.

I strongly suspect that for you as a cyclist the Cytronex is a better option than any bike using the Pansonic motor unit like the Kakhoff.

You'll find many disagree with you on the Optibike, only viable for some use on illegally high powers like their 800 Watt version. That's ok for those parts of the USA where that power is allowed, but in much of the rest of the world it's not. It isn't only Europe that has strong legislation on these, much of the world including many states of the USA and places as far away as Australia and New Zealand have even tougher legislation, including total bans in some cases.

For the great majority of e-bike users who are utility riders the Optibike is a very poor design. There's the rear suspension, not compatible with efficient cycling in road use and also not best for towing, plus no heavy duty carrier provision so a large pannier load or child seat aren't options.
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[Dynamic Position]

Flecc, thankyou for your thoughts.

My Raleigh P4000 suited my needs over the 5.5 years since purchased, but most of my travels were commuting to and from work. My local Raleigh bike dealer closed down last year and my P4000 is now not fit for purpose without a major overhaul. With life changes it is now time to think about future needs.

The Cytronex system looks good, but as these kits are not yet available and Trek no longer allow their bikes to be sent out by courier, it could be a while before I am back in the saddle. Will the Cytronex system remain compatible with wet conditions after 5-years of use?

The Kalkhoff range also looks good, the Tassman Crossbar having suspension similar to my old Raleigh P4000. Is their a difference between the motor, gearing and battery specification of the Pro Connect and the Tassman Crossbar?

I have read quite a few posted personal experiences and reviews of the Kalkhoff and other bikes bikes, but so far have not picked up on a comparison between the new electically assisted bicycle with power off (battery removed for weight consideration) and the previous (ordinary) bicycle. Do you know where I could obtain such information? I guess the Cytronex system would out perform the others?

The Optibike performance looks good, but I wouldn't buy one because of the design shape.

 

[flecc]

Will the Cytronex system remain compatible with wet conditions after 5-years of use?

I don't see why not. The battery connector seems quite well sealed and there's been no reports of water ingress problems on the Tongxin nano motor it uses. Nothing can compare with the total sealing of the Panasonic system though.

Is their a difference between the motor, gearing and battery specification of the Pro Connect and the Tasman Crossbar?

The standard gearing on all these bikes is for assist cutoff at 15 mph to comply with the law, but a rear sprocket change can alter that. Both of these bikes use the same 8 speed Nexus top of the range Alfine hub gear. The Pro Connect is reputed to have very slightly more power than the Agattu/Tasman series, but it won't be enough to be a deciding factor. The battery is common to all models.

I have read quite a few posted personal experiences and reviews of the Kalkhoff and other bikes, but so far have not picked up on a comparison between the new electrically assisted bicycle with power off (battery removed for weight consideration) and the previous (ordinary) bicycle. Do you know where I could obtain such information?

It's an interesting question and I don't think anyone has compared the standard and powered Kalkhoff versions. They should be very similar, the electric version without battery slightly heavier and the gearing possibly a bit lower due to the electric legal position.

I guess the Cytronex system would out perform the others?

If fact it only assists to 15 mph and that cannot be altered, so it's not potentially as fast as an overgeared Kalkhoff. However, it's closeness to a normal bike means it could be as fast or faster in the hands of a strong cyclist, and strong rider David Henshaw of A to B magazine reckons it the fastest of all standard e-bikes.

Trying a Kalkhoff is essential though, to see if you are happy with the power at low cadences and also the use of a hub gear which requires pausing when changing gear, and the gear change is slower than the derailleurs you are used to.
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[Dynamic Position]

Flecc, on reflection I think that it could be useful for Pedelec/Cytronex e-bike reviews to report average unpowered speed over say 4 miles of flat tarred terrain (and calm weather). Hopefully Kalkhoff Proconnect and Talisman owners reading this will conduct a trial run and post results for me.

My Raleigh P4000 was not a particulary expensive or fast bike, but it did the job of getting me to and from work (usually quicker than taking the car). I quite liked the front suspension of the P4000, but was unaware of efficiency costs in wasted expended energy! What do you estimate the effeciency costs are of the Kalkhoff Talisman relative to the Kalkhoff Proconnect for time/speed during assisted/unassisted travel?

I was reading with interest about your Q bike and its performance, are you able to give me an estimate of how the Kalkhoff Talisman/Proconnect bikes would perform relative to this?

 

[Mussels]

Flecc, on reflection I think that it could be useful for Pedelec/Cytronex e-bike reviews to report average unpowered speed over say 4 miles of flat tarred terrain (and calm weather). Hopefully Kalkhoff Proconnect and Talisman owners reading this will conduct a trial run and post results for me.

It needs to be done by the same person over the same route in the same conditions, only place you're likely to find that is AtoB magazine.
As far as suspension forks sapping power goes it again depends on the forks and the rider, I notice no difference whether my forks are locked or not.
If you want to delve into the world of one off specials and power alternatives then endless sphere may be the place to look.

 

[Barnowl]

Flecc, on reflection I think that it could be useful for Pedelec/Cytronex e-bike reviews to report average unpowered speed over say 4 miles of flat tarred terrain (and calm weather). Hopefully Kalkhoff Proconnect and Talisman owners reading this will conduct a trial run and post results for me.

I'd be happy to do this for a Cytronex (just for the hell of it) but I have no idea where I would find 4 miles of flat tarred terrain (and calm weather) or alternative bikes to compare. It would have to be a track so that there was no traffic or any other variables. Without any stops, on the flat, I'm guessing I would be cycling around 20MPH+ but it would depend what mood I was in and whether I'd had a good nights sleep and a hearty breakfast. Possibly a medical team on standby may be required.

 

[flecc]

I was reading with interest about your Q bike and its performance, are you able to give me an estimate of how the Kalkhoff Talisman/Proconnect bikes would perform relative to this?

On the flat with the Kalkhoff bikes resprocketed slightly up, they would be as fast and could be faster under power with more extreme sprockets like 16 tooth.

On moderate to medium hills they would tend to be be a little slower, but see footnote.

On very steep hills they would equal the climb ability and be little different in terms of rider effort.

Footnote: The crucial difference is that on these middling hills the Q bike needs little or nothing from me, while the Kalkhoffs demand 50% (Standard power mode) or 43% (High Power mode) from the rider. For example, on a 7% hill the Q bike will soar over it at 12 to 13 mph without me pedalling, or faster according to how much I decide to add.

Basically the Q bike gives a 70 kilo rider the option of cycling or mopeding everywhere except on climbs of over 12% (1 in 8) where only the assistance option exists.
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[Barnowl]

I have read quite a few posted personal experiences and reviews of the Kalkhoff and other bikes bikes, but so far have not picked up on a comparison between the new electically assisted bicycle with power off (battery removed for weight consideration) and the previous (ordinary) bicycle. Do you know where I could obtain such information? I guess the Cytronex system would out perform the others?

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I do ride the Cytronex occassionally without the battery (removed for weight consideration). When I do this it's mostly on flat terrain. The difference is acceleration - it's a bit slower to get up to speed and involves more effort as you'd expect. Once above 15.4MPH it makes no difference since there is no assistance anyway.
The weight of the Cytronex equipped bike is 17Kg and without the battery about 15Kg. The weight of the Trek 7.3FX is about 11.5Kg. The difference between the Cytronex equipped bike and the original Trek 7.3FX therefore is about 5.5kg. I make that about 12 pounds or without the baterry about 7.5 pounds.
I don't think 7.5 pounds makes a lot of difference. My backpack is 14 pounds.
I'd be more concerned about the regular 24 mile trip since that exceeds the Cytronex normal range of 20 miles without recharge or use of 2nd battery.

PS. I find that for me, at about 12.5 stones, for moderate gradients rising to occasional shortish steep inclines town/suburban Cytronex riding is good for about 20 miles per charge. I would estimate about 50 -55 minutes for a reasonably comfortable 12 mile journey. Unless you're being frugal or cycling largely flat terrain I'd expect the battery assistance to start dropping off after about 18 miles. Unless you had a 2nd charger at work that last 6 miles would be key. I don't believe fully draining the battery every trip is a good idea. For your 8 mile round trips the Cytronex solution is excellent.

 

[Dynamic Position]

Thank you for all the replies. I'm guessing that whatever I buy will be quicker than my old Raleigh P4000 ever was. Day in day out I would complete the 4 mile route within 27 - 29 minutes (3 miles off road and 1mile on road up hill), in the nearest comparison when I take the car the journey takes me 40 minutes +/- 20minutes depending on traffic. Electric power assistance can only impove upon the figures.

If it was not for the fact that that I will have to travel a 12 mile hilly route in future I think the Cytronex system would be perfect. I will wait for a while in anticipation of a Cytronex kit but I am also drawn to the Kalkhoff Tasman & Proconnect pedelecs. Making my mind up is going to be difficult.

 

[fishingpaul]

Flecc, on reflection I think that it could be useful for Pedelec/Cytronex e-bike reviews to report average unpowered speed over say 4 miles of flat tarred terrain (and calm weather). Hopefully Kalkhoff Proconnect and Talisman owners reading this will conduct a trial run and post results for me.

My Raleigh P4000 was not a particulary expensive or fast bike, but it did the job of getting me to and from work (usually quicker than taking the car). I quite liked the front suspension of the P4000, but was unaware of efficiency costs in wasted expended energy! What do you estimate the effeciency costs are of the Kalkhoff Talisman relative to the Kalkhoff Proconnect for time/speed during assisted/unassisted travel?

I was reading with interest about your Q bike and its performance, are you able to give me an estimate of how the Kalkhoff Talisman/Proconnect bikes would perform relative to this?

the present kalkhoffs cannot provide unpowered speed,only assisted cycling speed which would vary according to rider abilllity,if you want a bike with the option of unassisted riding,the ezee or wisper models may suit better,the cytronex is a good option for the fitter cyclist,that wants the feeling of riding a normal bike and a little help here and there.

 

[Barnowl]

Thank you for all the replies. I'm guessing that whatever I buy will be quicker than my old Raleigh P4000 ever was. Day in day out I would complete the 4 mile route within 27 - 29 minutes (3 miles off road and 1mile on road up hill), in the nearest comparison when I take the car the journey takes me 40 minutes +/- 20minutes depending on traffic. Electric power assistance can only impove upon the figures.
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On the Cytronex 4 miles is probably going to take about 15 minutes. I think you're right to be drawn to the Kalkoff though. They seem to be good quality robust bikes that can do the much higher mileages 24 miles you expect to make. The Wisper could also handle those distances comfortably. If this was me I'd see what Cytronex are going to offer and at what price. Then see if it was worth investing in this solution, for say 18 months. You could then sell the bike on ebay and get something more suitable for the greater distance. The problem with the Kalkoff and other lithium battery production bikes you can buy is the battery life and the high cost of replacement. If you buy a bike with a lithium battery you really want to be getting the most out of it since it has a limited life regardless of use.

 

[Caph]

Alien Ocean have got a nice looking gents special available at the moment. I've not tried it but it sounds like it might be in your ballpark from the requirements you gave.