Help! What COMPLETELY LEGAL Ebike will get me up hills?

[Bike & Tina Turner]

My previous post was deleted despite editing out offending info, so I'll post my request again. Need bike, need to go up hill. Help, etc.

• I'm 65kg, 5'3"
• Hills
• £2k budget
• Have existing 26" mountain bike I can convert but quite an old bike with rim gears

I'd appreciate some genuine advice. Thank you.

 

[flecc]

Looks cool, never really ridden a Holland style before, would it take some getting used to? I'm wondering too if being more upright would affect how efficiently I could pedal, especially on hills?

The only thing to get used to is the greater comfort with that kind of bike and handlebars. It's how we all used to ride in Britain 70 and more years ago and from Africa through to India and China how almost all the rest of the world still rides today.

A few years back I had a Giant Lafree electric bike very similar in style to the Santana. One day I invited a friend and neighour, who was a typical keen roadie, drop handlebars, lycra etc., to try it out, since he'd never ridden an electric assist bike before.

When he came back from a short ride with me expecting a comment on the electric assist, this is what he said:

"What wonderful handlebars!"

It was probably the most comfortable he'd ever been on a bike, and he'd obviously been happy with riding it.

But of course tastes are personal and only you will know by trying out a similar style bike. Woosh don't have a crossbar style bike suitable for your height and others I know that might suit are way beyond your budget.
.

 

[cyclebuddy]

My previous post was deleted despite editing out offending info, so I'll post my request again.

Was it you considering the Estarli e20? IIRC they claim 50Nm* torque achievable, which is pretty beefy for a compact 20kg foldable, and although the battery is a bit on the smaller side it's more than fine for what you need. Estarli are based/assembled in Bucks I think and have a select (small!) number of dealers so a test ride may be possible (and they do all the cycle to work schemes too if that's open to you). It seems a popular choice that IMHO would easily do what you need. The e28 IIRC you also mentioned is I think too big for your height.

EDIT: Just checked: It's 40nm for the standard e20.7, and 50nm for the latest 20.8 "Play".

 

[StuartsProjects]

Looks cool, never really ridden a Holland style before, would it take some getting used to?

Not in my experience.

Way back in the late 70s I had my nice road bike stolen and I needed a bike for getting around whilst a custom Reynolds 531 DB frame was built.

So I went to a second hand shop and bought a 'sit up and beg' bike as the were referred to at the time. Solid metal bars to actuate the brakes etc. Heavy for sure but the upright riding position was very easy to adapt to and very comfortable. Memories.

 

[Cadence]

You don't say what you are wanting to use the bike for. Commuting or just for pleasure? From the look of the tyres on your Raleigh MTB I'm guessing you don't go off-road much?
If you are attached to your Raleigh it's possible to convert it (it looks in nice condition BTW).
There are a few things to consider though.
I assume you will be riding down the steep hills as well as up! The cantilever brakes will not be good enough to cope with the extra performance without constant attention and will get through pads quickly. They will not be as good as disc or v-brakes, particularly in the wet.
Here is my 1992 Giant MTB which I converted:-



The first thing to say is that it is a Yosepower 350w. rear hub kit so it doesn't fit your "completely legal" remit, but I wanted a full throttle and the Yose 250w is only "walk assist".
I have their 250w. kit on my hybrid and the performance is similar - if anything the 250w. gets up hills a bit better.
I changed the cantilever brakes for good second hand Tektro v-brakes from ebay and fitted new pads.
To fit the downtube battery I had to get an adaptor as the drinks bottle mounts were too low on the frame. This is a common problem and the adaptors are available from Yose or on ebay.
Yose cables are ridiculously long but I was able to run them up the legs of a rear rack using spiral wrap (the "coil" on the top of the rack is a bike lock BTW!)
All in the conversion cost me about £450.00.
You are probably thinking "OK, but does it get up hills?". Well, yes it does but as with any pedal-assist the clue is in the title - you have to pedal! Yose claim 58Nm for their 250w. kit, but if you think you will need more I would suggest that you talk to Woosh about a 48v. kit. It will cost more but will be a more suitable solution and you will get good advice and service.
The Yose 250w. rear hub kit for a freewheel (which your Raleigh has) is out of stock anyway.
I'd be tempted to buy a Santana from Woosh and just keep the Raleigh as it is. The problem with that is I have a much cherished vintage touring bike, but since going electric I haven't bothered to ride it at all!

 

[cyclebuddy]

You really should find room for some pre-converted Bafang mid-drive bikes Woosh - oodles of older riders out there would welcome them, I think. Set "keep current" to 100%, increase the controller amps, replace battery BMSs with higher rated ones, large capacity batteries etc. to get even one legged unfit asthmatic fatties up any hill. Call them Woosh Hill Slayers™. Conan The Barbarian logo.

Woosh already has (at least had?) a Dutch-style hill slayer called the Rambla... with it's (350w... sorry, officially 250w) Bafang M400 TS mid-drive. Upping Current and changing Keep to 100% really slays the battery though (at least it does on my pre-M nomenclature MaxDrive version).

 

[saneagle]

Was it you considering the Estarli e20? IIRC they claim 50Nm* torque achievable, which is pretty beefy for a compact 20kg foldable, and although the battery is a bit on the smaller side it's more than fine for what you need. Estarli are based/assembled in Bucks I think and have a select (small!) number of dealers so a test ride may be possible (and they do all the cycle to work schemes too if that's open to you). It seems a popular choice that IMHO would easily do what you need. The e28 IIRC you also mentioned is I think too big for your height.

EDIT: Just checked: It's 40nm for the standard e20.7, and 50nm for the latest 20.8 "Play".

Torque is meaningless. It's force that gets you up the hill and power that determines how fast you go up. Any motor in a 20" wheel will give 30% more climing force as it would in a 26" wheel.

 

[Woosh]

It's just a bit difficult to get your head around the numbers.
For hub motors, the torque is measured at the wheel so the tyre diameter is important, the resulting climbing force at the point of contact with the road is inversely proportional to the radius of the tyre.
Smaller wheels correspond to greater climbing force.
Big wheels need big torque to turn, for the same wheel, More NM is better.
I can show you how to calculate the minimum torque needed to climb comfortably a steep hill if you like. You need the minimum speed (like 8mph), the total weight of you and the bike and the gradient of the hill. Subtract from that your own pedalling contribution, you'll arrive to what the motor must supply.

For crank drives, the torque is measured at the chainring and the resulting climbing force at the wheel is inversely proportional not only to the radius of the tyre but the front to rear transmission ratio too. It follows that crank drives can excel at hill climbing by good use of gears, having a small front to rear transmission ratio.

 

[Ocsid]

I don't even know where Winsley is, you're definitely thinking of someone else.

Apologies, clearly, I must be thinking of a different posting.

 

[cyclebuddy]

Torque is meaningless...

In this context the figure is quoted simply to convey the fact that the e20.8 model has more grunt than the near identical standard e20.7 model, in case that matters to the OP.

KISS.

 

[guerney]

Woosh already has (at least had?) a Dutch-style hill slayer called the Rambla... with it's (350w... sorry, officially 250w) Bafang M400 TS mid-drive. Upping Current and changing Keep to 100% really slays the battery though (at least it does on my pre-M nomenclature MaxDrive version).

According to @Nealh, my 19.2Ah battery with it's cheapo LG MH1 cells is capable of providing 25A continuous. My BMS is limited to 22A, and I need 1A for lights. I haven't had any need to increase controller amps from 15A yet, despite hauling heavy trailers up hills. I have yet to find a hill and/or hauling task which would require the BBS01B's max 20A. I'm certain @saneagle could list 250W rated hub motors capable of withstanding 20A to 30A coursing through their windings (he said as much recently on a thread somewhere), for legal hub motored Woosh Hill Slayers™. A stable of such beast pedelecs would be the envy of other manufacturers, and would fly off his bike racks, I reckon, judging by the many queries about hills we get on this forum from the:

 

[Woosh]

In this context the figure is quoted simply to convey the fact that the e20.8 model has more grunt than the near identical standard e20.7 model, in case that matters to the OP.

KISS.

As saneagle said, torque numbers are meaningless. You need to specify a host of other details like power. yield and RPM. Manufacturers supply test charts to help with selecting the best motor for the job. I usually look for maximum torque for 180rpm at around 500w for my 26 and 700c bikes to run on 36V 16A controllers. Geared hub motors with similar size and weight tend to give similar maximum torque but some have higher yield than others so are preferrable. On bikes with a lower power controller like the Woosh Faro, I am looking for best torque and yield for 350W. 350W means I can go for a smaller, lighter hub motor like the Aikema 85SX, now 85SX(RC1). Aikema change the naming scheme of their motors a lot. The 85SX gives 42NM with 14A controller and 45NM with 16A controller.
There is one more factor that needs to be taken into account, the gear reduction ratio. The Aikema 85SX for example has two stage 11.5:1 reduction gearbox, much better at 80rpm than motors with the same maximum torque at 180rpm but with 4.5 reduction ratio because the yield at low speed is better with higher reduction ratio.
Maximum torque a complicated subject so take the advertisement at your risk.

 

[Brik]

Here is my 1992 Giant MTB which I converted:-

View attachment 52372

I'd be tempted to buy a Santana from Woosh and just keep the Raleigh as it is. The problem with that is I have a much cherished vintage touring bike, but since going electric I haven't bothered to ride it at all!

Nice looking bike that is similar to my own 20 year old hybrid bike, not wanting to hijack the thread but is your frame aluminium? Google says ali frames have a life span and should be replaced after 10-15 years, is this true?


My advice to the original poster would probably be to buy a new bike rather than convert her Raleigh, it would be a lot less hassle and a new purpose built e-bike should be more reliable, that said my bike suits my needs well plus I enjoyed doing the conversion and used it to familiarise myself with bike mechanics, also my bike has no problem with any hills!

 

[saneagle]

Google says ali frames have a life span and should be replaced after 10-15 years, is this true?

Complete bunk. How do they know how much it's been used for a start?

 

[Cadence]

Nice looking bike that is similar to my own 20 year old hybrid bike, not wanting to hijack the thread but is your frame aluminium? Google says ali frames have a life span and should be replaced after 10-15 years, is this true?

No, it's steel. It's no lightweight but is very comfortable to ride. I put that down to the curved forks and running relatively low pressures with the 26 x 1.95 tyres (40psi front, 45psi rear). The tyres are cheap Vittoria Easy Riders which have a shallow tread in the centre, and are surprisingly free running on tarmac. I've had it rolling at a sustained 20mph on the road, with electric assistance of course. If I push it any more with the pedals I "spin out" at around 23mph. Having said that, I prefer to look at the scenery so don't often run that fast.
I agree with your comments re-converting an older bike - I just happen to like tinkering at least as much as riding!
p.s. The bike cost me £35.00 on ebay.

 

[Brik]

I've had it rolling at a sustained 20mph on the road, with electric assistance of course. If I push it any more with the pedals I "spin out" at around 23mph.

I went for a 52 tooth front chain ring so my legs are never spinning furiously!

 

[Cadence]

I went for a 52 tooth front chain ring so my legs are never spinning furiously!

We're going way off topic, but I can't fit anything bigger than 48t without hitting the chainstay, so I've kept the original triple crankset. I fitted a new Shinano 14-28T 7 speed freewheel and wasn't aware that DNP make an 11-28T - oh well!

 

[soundwave]

I went for a 52 tooth front chain ring so my legs are never spinning furiously!

i got a 52t on my bike but can sprint at 100rpm every road bike in ten years has been destroyed overtaking me is a act of war

 

[saneagle]

i got a 52t on my bike but can sprint at 100rpm every road bike in ten years has been destroyed overtaking me is a act of war

Be careful, one time I racing a roadbike and just starting to win, when a bus came past at about 40 mph. The roadbike guy chose his moment and tucked in behind the bus, then waved at me as he disappeared into the distance at 40 mph.

 

[soundwave]

i have had one that came close i just broke the tow i dont need a bus to tow me down the road i got 500w from my legs.

 

[georgehenry]

One thing I note is how light the person is. My daughter is currently using my old rear hub Oxygen Emate to commute to work and is a similar weight.

On a few practice rides we had together I was struck by how with my daughter riding the bike the performance and hill climbing ability of the old Oxygen had been transformed.

I was riding my crank drive Yamaha Haibike, a very capable hill climber and my daughter as an inexperienced cyclist in the wrong gear was flying up a steep hill that I could only just keep up with her using my high assist level. Bear in mind the Oxygen is cica 2011.

So a simple relatively cheap generic Chinese rear hub bike might be all that is required. Job done. Cheap to buy and easy to fix and replacement batteries that cost in the £165 to £210 range from a reliable recognized supplier like Yose when you need a replacement.

My old Oxygen is 12 years old and still working a treat. Now that is good value. Grandfather rights and an unrestricted throttle means that on the level she can sit there not pedaling with the throttle open trundling along around 18 mph.

As someone in the racing car business once said, "Add lightness and simplify".