What about facts and figures?

[flecc]

the contentious area is in advising members which bike to buy. D8veh gave an example yesterday,

If this member walks into a shop, which one of these two replies is more likely? 'buy a Big Bear on the internet' or 'you need to up your budget to £2k and I have a Kalkhoff here that'll do it very nicely'.

Yes, the shop will try to sell what it has in stock. That's no different from any other products of course, but crucially e-bikes are unlike most products. Cars, fridges, TVs etc, they will all basically do what the consumer requires, but not every e-bike will.

 

[newboater]

as a new boy I came across this forum when I started the hunt for a ebike , I did my research ,asked questions ,and found someone local who had a ebike , so then off to a shop I went . what I wanted was ,a step through frame , big battery ,and a name I recognised . it all came together in a wisper 705 classic ,but the most important thing for me ,a dealer only 10miles away form me . 1month down the line I could not be happier ,out every day and gradually increasing the mileage .Why did I join a forum ,I suppose to ask for help when needed ,and to swop ideas etc .I am sure senior members will agree that there is no such thing as a silly question , I am not in the 1st flush of youth ,I do embrace change and new technology I have the smartphone the ipad .I can adjust my brakes, and my gears . how does my motor work ,I do not have a clue am I bothered no . I on my travels have been asked the usual questions about the bike ,and always answer politely ,those I Know, I think that we should all be ambassadors for these great machines ,be we commuters ,or like myself pleasure . for any forum to thrive new members are needed ,so any encouragement should be given and I am glad to see that happening on here

 

[EddiePJ]

Sitting on my side of the fence, I've gone the other way in relation to what to expect from an e-bike.

Before buying the BH, I had read the various forums, with Endless Sphere containing the most technical related info, and something that it still excels at.
I narrowed my choice down two bikes, a Kalkoff, and the BH. Reading further about customers thoughts, I went off the BH idea, then on a rainy day decided to pop into the local bike shop and left with the BH. The looks closed the deal, despite what I had already read in respect of the various negative comments.
The Haibike, was bought primarily for cost reasons when I compared it other bikes of similar type. Had I paid full wack for it, I'd be very disappointed, and feel that Haibike are over priced. But that's another story.

Now that I have become well and truly hooked in relation to taking part in off road events, and general e-mtb riding, my thoughts have been turning to a more suitable bike. This is where the discussion aspect of things being too technical come into play. The first bike purchase is/was daunting as it is something completely new to me. I'd not be alone in that respect.
Now though I want as much info as is possible, but despite what has been said, this forum doesn't have enough in depth information available.
Exaggeration here, but my floor is now littered with as much info as is available, printed off, in order to compare like for like and try to split hairs between bikes. Sadly motor wise, there isn't much to offer between manufacturers, so it eventually comes down to the stage of bike price, then splitting hairs on component spec, even down to what headset that a bike is fitted with.
From this point, it then comes down to where is the nearest supplying dealer, and then what is the bikes warranty cover.
Then from there, it leads to how existing purchasers have been treated in the event of things going tits up. Even with that you have to take things with a pinch of salt though, and step back to try to see both sides of a debate.
Dave hit the nail on the head with this one this morning in relation to the AMT pro thread.
Finally it can even come down to colour choice. The blue on the Cube is rank, the orange and black of the KTM is superb.

From the perspective of a customer and forum user, the element that I personally don't like to see is one dealer have what I consider to be an under handed swipe at another. This achieves nothing other than alienating the dealer that is taking the swipe.





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[jackhandy]

I'm sure most sites and all dealers give the first two and the answer to the last is surely obvious.

The point I was making is that not all ebikes help you climb hills In Equal Measure, as I know you realise
Otherwise, why is the same question asked here ad nausiam.
It's surely not beyond current technology to devise a repeatable test of hill-climbing ability & applying same to ebikes?
The only thing preventing such comparative testing is sellers' reluctance.

 

[Cyclezee]

TBH, the Ezee and BPM motors out-perform the Bosch motors any day and yet, few e-bike shops sell them.

Just to clarify, you won't find eZee bikes in any shops in the UK because we only sell direct, if we did sell though shops the bikes would be anywhere up to 30% more expensive.
This is why the UK is the cheapest place in the world to buy an eZee bike.

 

[flecc]

It's surely not beyond current technology to devise a repeatable test of hill-climbing ability & applying same to ebikes?
The only thing preventing such comparative testing is sellers' reluctance.

Simple for other motorised vehicles, but not for e-bikes.

The problem is with the torque sensing crank drive units. They will only produce their hill climb best when the rider also inputs their best. That completely distorts the outcome for comparison purposes against for example those hub motor bikes where the rider only has to twirl the pedals without any effort to get maximum power.

A true comparison is only possible with vehicles that can run adequately with motor power only, excluding the rider factor.

This has been discussed over the whole life of the forum and no-one has yet produced a satisfactory way of giving useful comparable results.

 

[enndee]

Seems I started something here!
Measuring hill climbing ability wouldn't be impossible I'm sure just need a rolling road type thing and something to drive the pedals, though not really something for a forum to implement
Must say there's been a number of people saying they were looking for such info so they could make some sort of informed decision before buying their first bike and a couple of weeks ago I was the same. You tend to get all the info about the frame, tyres, seat, brakes and gears but the E-bits not so much so obviously sellers do think that info is important at least in the more mature market of the bicycle itself.
The motor bit though seems something that's hidden away for some reason. I did work out that there were 'not so good' ones 200w 24v and some illegal ones etc but beyond that not much.
To say people aren't interested they are but maybe not to the level of say what windings the motor has. Also I don't think sellers are keeping quiet not to draw attention to their motors pushing the envelope as that would be pointless - not generating more sales and risky - police/trading standards might get interested.
So more understandable info please sellers - make a standout bike which shows in figures and the buyers will seek you out.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Having had some experience of placing possible bikes for sale in front of customers I have to say that most aren't interested in the technical spec of an e-bike.
Mostly,but not always,they have some idea of the type of bike they want,they know whether they want a step thru or a crossbar frame. They know why they want it,usually help to climb hills or arrive at work non sweaty.
At this stage they don't know whether they want crank drive or hub drive,derailleur or hub gears,battery position etc. Now comes the importance of a good honest dealer who has a variety of stock,who listens to their requirements and suggests a bike.
At this moment they buy with their eyes,you can suggest the perfect spec bike for them but if it looks ugly to their eyes they rightfully don't want it.
Of course,there will always be compromises,it is almost impossible to provide the perfect bike,the skill of the retailer suggests bikes which meet most of the requirements they have and try to steer them away from unsuitability.
There are some dealers which have this skill and are not frightened to ultimately say 'sorry we don't have a bike for you' and recommend a competitors bike that they know would be ideal.
Note,I haven't mentioned spec or type in the foregoing,this only confuses most customers and really why does it matter,they want a bike to do their job.
It's usually only at the end of the process or during the test ride that the subject of type/specification is mentioned and then only when a particular aspect is not meeting their ideas.
Obviously members of the Pedelecs forum are usually much more knowledgable and the buying process may be somewhat different,but this is not the norm.
To summarise,customers know what they want from these bikes. I don't think they care much how that is achieved,they want a bike that they like the look of and at a price that seems fair,the rest they trust to a caring and honest dealer.
KudosDave

 

[hoppy]

Simple for other motorised vehicles, but not for e-bikes.

The problem is with the torque sensing crank drive units. They will only produce their hill climb best when the rider also inputs their best. That completely distorts the outcome for comparison purposes against for example those hub motor bikes where the rider only has to twirl the pedals without any effort to get maximum power.

A true comparison is only possible with vehicles that can run adequately with motor power only, excluding the rider factor.

This has been discussed over the whole life of the forum and no-one has yet produced a satisfactory way of giving useful comparable results.

Simple for other motorised vehicles, but not for e-bikes.

The problem is with the torque sensing crank drive units. They will only produce their hill climb best when the rider also inputs their best. That completely distorts the outcome for comparison purposes against for example those hub motor bikes where the rider only has to twirl the pedals without any effort to get maximum power.

A true comparison is only possible with vehicles that can run adequately with motor power only, excluding the rider factor.

This has been discussed over the whole life of the forum and no-one has yet produced a satisfactory way of giving useful comparable results.

Quite possible for bikes with throttles, though. I'd love to see an objective comparison of Ezee, Kudos, Tonaro, Woosh etc.

 

[stevieb]

agree with most of whats been said and most people buying an e bike get one that suits their needs and thats the end of it which is fine.
they don,t come on a forum because they are not really that interested as they have what they paid for .
the same could be said for many items people buy eg tv,s washing machines hoovers.
the difference with joining a forum is surely that folks are more interested in e bikes than joe public who just buys then doesn,t give it a second thought.
so as i origonally posted , i am now more interested in the technical side of things which is my reason for comming on this site .
if thats not something some are interested in then thats fine but some of us are .
is there anything wrong with trying to educate myself?
those not interested in this aspect of ebikes don,t have to trouble themselves reading about it .
after all we are all not interested in the same issues
thanks

 

[Wisper Bikes]

as a new boy I came across this forum when I started the hunt for a ebike , I did my research ,asked questions ,and found someone local who had a ebike , so then off to a shop I went . what I wanted was ,a step through frame , big battery ,and a name I recognised . it all came together in a wisper 705 classic ,but the most important thing for me ,a dealer only 10miles away form me . 1month down the line I could not be happier ,out every day and gradually increasing the mileage .Why did I join a forum ,I suppose to ask for help when needed ,and to swop ideas etc .I am sure senior members will agree that there is no such thing as a silly question , I am not in the 1st flush of youth ,I do embrace change and new technology I have the smartphone the ipad .I can adjust my brakes, and my gears . how does my motor work ,I do not have a clue am I bothered no . I on my travels have been asked the usual questions about the bike ,and always answer politely ,those I Know, I think that we should all be ambassadors for these great machines ,be we commuters ,or like myself pleasure . for any forum to thrive new members are needed ,so any encouragement should be given and I am glad to see that happening on here

Thanks Newboater for investing in a Wisper Classic, I hope you get much pleasure from your investment.

All the best

David