What about facts and figures?

[enndee]

I 'hunt' my 'quarry' using the internet and use facts and figures to find the best. ie I shop on the internet. Ebikes seem an ideal subject for this - motor power, current, volts, max and continuous power, amp hours , weight etc - however this info seems to be very sparse. Having adverts just saying they have the latest generation 250w motor means nothing.

for instance my bike which is supposed to have a bpm 250w motor says it's got a bfswx08 350w but I'm told (from another thread) that what model it actually is depend on it's spoke diameter

Do other people find this or is there some hidden resource of info? Or do people rely on actually trying lots of them to sort the wheat from the chaff?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

You can't go by facts and figures from adverts with ebikes. The law says that the motor must be rated by the manufacturer as 250W, but it doesn't say how that should be done. Therefore all adverts will say 250w motor, but the difference in power and torque can be a lot.

The main thing that affects a motor is the winding speed (max rpm), which determines how fast it can go and how well it'll climb hills. After that, the maximum current . You could also get an idea from the speed at which the motor makes maximum efficiency .Normally none of these parameters are given in internet listings.

 

[enndee]

Yes and that's what I'm getting at. The devils in the detail yet that detail is missing. I would have thought that some website would come up with tables of bike details similar to what you get for cars so that people know (or at least have a vague idea) whether that good looking bike goes like it's been drinking red bull or horlicks. Or even if data down to that detail was overkill having the motor and controller model along with the battery capacity might be an idea.

 

[stevieb]

i would agree with this
now that i,m getting more interested in the technical side of ebikes some info about whats good for different uses and why would be very interesting.
if the manufacturers stated this info it may go over the head of lots of people but it wouldn,t do any harm and at least the experts could give an idea of the performance without actualy having to try things out.

 

[trex]

you mean motor make and model, battery capacity and controller Amp rating? Most German bikes are fitted with Bosch kits - those all have the same performance. Most sellers of Chinese made bikes disclose only battery capacity, leaving the question of performance to be interpreted by the shop assistants.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I think many manufacturers would be a bit nervous about publishing their power data. Most people, including politicians think that the power allowed is 250w max, so when they see 20 amps and 42v = 840w, there could be a problem.

Also, many people importing bikes are non-technical. They don't even know the difference between motors, currents, voltages etc, which is why you just see descriptions like "high efficiency 250w motor".

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Also, many people importing bikes are non-technical. They don't even know the difference between motors, currents, voltages etc, which is why you just see descriptions like "high efficiency 250w motor".

a useful point of discussion this... as its also related to Kudo Dave's questions about why this forum isn't as populated as it potentially could be.

I'd suggest that whilst some guys on here are rightly (due to their knowledge and experience) super interested in the electrical engineering side of the bikes. Most customers and members of the public simply don't care and are actually put off this forum by the in depth discussions about the electrics. Its also the reason we don't put out tonnes of information, most people don't need or want it, and it just confuses them.

Just look at all the people who drive cars and can't even change a tyre let alone understand what a turbo actually is, or the difference between the 1.3 and 1.4 engines etc etc. Most people just want reliable products they can use, and will do the job - they don't want or need to know about all the details.

Just my thoughts for a Tuesday morning.

Col

 

[trex]

Not everyone is technical but numerical information helps fair comparisons.
Like this one:
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/outlander/explore-phev.aspx
Without numbers, some sales staff will relie on emotional blackmail to push sales.

 

[Cyclezee]

a useful point of discussion this... as its also related to Kudo Dave's questions about why this forum isn't as populated as it potentially could be.

I'd suggest that whilst some guys on here are rightly (due to their knowledge and experience) super interested in the electrical engineering side of the bikes. Most customers and members of the public simply don't care and are actually put off this forum by the in depth discussions about the electrics. Its also the reason we don't put out tonnes of information, most people don't need or want it, and it just confuses them.

Just look at all the people who drive cars and can't even change a tyre let alone understand what a turbo actually is, or the difference between the 1.3 and 1.4 engines etc etc. Most people just want reliable products they can use, and will do the job - they don't want or need to know about all the details.

Just my thoughts for a Tuesday morning.

Col

Totally agree, the average e-biker is on the whole not interested in all the complexities and technical jargon and I am sure some of them are turned off by an overload of information.

Just like the majority of motorists who haven't got clue about the workings of the infernal combustion engine which used to fascinate me when I was a kid, now I rarely lift the bonnet and then just to top up fluids.

Wonder how many visitors check this section
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/electric-bike-guides/buyers-guides/?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I think most car drivers understand miles per gallon, top speed and power, however, most cars have appropriate gearing, so top speed is related to power. Therefore, people tend to see power as top speed, which is probably why they always ask about ebikes,"How fast does it go". When everybody tells them 15mph, they get the false impression that all bikes have the same power.

If you go on the German forum, you'll find that everything is expressed in facts and figures. They'll be discussing and comparing gear ratios between different bikes and things like that.

Without, technical information, what else are you going to say?

" Oooh, I went out for a ride on my KTM today. It was really nice. My friend was on his Kalkhoff. He said it was really nice too. When we got to the pub, we met a strange guy that had a Chinese bike with a motor in the wheel. He said that he thought his bike was better, but we didn't agree because nothing that comes from China can be good quality because of human rights. When we got home I had two lights on my battery display, but my friend only had one on his Kalkhoff, so I think the KTM is better".

If people weren't interested in technical stuff, there'd be no discussion about it. The very fact that there's a lot of discussion about it should be telling an intelligent person something!

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Not everyone is technical but numerical information helps fair comparisons.
Like this one:
http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/outlander/explore-phev.aspx
Without numbers, some sales staff will relie on emotional blackmail to push sales.

I'm sorry to say, that with most bikes in most cases, people buy them based on a lot of things... numbers often isn't one of them.

well thats not entirely true - price and range are the only two numbers they care about. I bet if you ask the vast majority of people who own and ride eBikes, they don't have a clue about voltage / amps / power / torque / etc etc. They just want it to be fast

you'll find people are more interest in things like colour, or what their mate / magazine has recommended.

Col

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I bet if you ask the vast majority of people who own and ride eBikes, they don't have a clue about voltage / amps / power / torque / etc etc.

Until you explain to them the relevance. Then they become very interested.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Until you explain to them the relevance. Then they become very interested.

no. not true. this maybe the case for you.

But most people just glaze over.

 

[trex]

...

But most people just glaze over.

Col, is this how you see your customers?

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

oh Trex.... come on. Don't try to turn it into a negative. I'm just telling you how it is. We even have eBike specialist shops telling us that this forum is too detailed and too focussed on one very niche part of the market. Most people don't have a degree in electrical engineering, and if you talk to them about anything other than range, they are turned off the subject. We talk in depth with our customers, and our dealers customers, so we can find out how best to market the brand, and we keep getting told this forum is not a great place to appeal to the typical eBike customer. This isn't my or even the opinion of the office here, its the opinion of people who sell eBikes and people who buy eBikes.

Most customers, and I have in no way said, most KTM customers. I'm talking much more generally and trying to help you understand why this forum isn't busier, and why most brands don't overload the public with information.

 

[trex]

I usually read quite a bit of the specs of your non electric bikes on the internet and must say, love them. Recently, Mitsubishi runs a new advert for their plug in hybrid SUV. The ad is a lot more technical than the average car ad and the webpage also leans a lot more towards providing potential customers with technology, facts and figures. So convincing is their presentation, I have no doubt that their hybrid is first on our list when my wife replaces her car.
I think the forum gets more technical simply because members want it to. I am not convinced by kudosdave's argument that the forum lacks variety. It's got more to do with Bosch dominance than a few frequent posters.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

no. not true. this maybe the case for you.

But most people just glaze over.

Is that because you don't know how to explain it properly?

 

[RobF]

Col is spot on, the majority of prospective ebike customers could not give a toss about all the technical stuff.

It is disingenuous for Trex and d8 to criticise Col for knowing his customers.

Just because you are super interested in something, don't assume everyone else is.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Is that because you don't know how to explain it properly?

its not us explaining it... its the dealers, who've had the bosch training and are all very competent with electronics. All I'm telling you is that most people who buy eBikes simply don't care.

Much like most people who buy a car, cos it looks ace, or because its the right price, or the right size, or the right number of seats. Some think about mpg, some think about more details inside the engine... but most don't care.

I bought my recent car for a whole number of reasons. If I'm honest I don't even know what size the engine is, and I've done 40k miles in it this year.

All I wanted was a diesel vw passat, and the local garage had one for sale at my budget so I bought it.

Col.

 

[trex]

Most of the technical debates are around which bikes are best for hills.
Until the beginning of 2013, crank drives, led by Bosch, are considered as most 'torquy', thus the only choice for hilly terrains. Since Kudos started selling 8-Fun BPM bikes (the Arriba and the Tornado), there has been a frequent debate about which bikes are better for hills, crank drives or beastly hubs like Ezee and BPM.
TBH, the Ezee and BPM motors out-perform the Bosch motors any day and yet, few e-bike shops sell them.