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- Thread starter rasputin
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Nice one Russ.
I've just been trying to picture a 20 kilo anorexic riding the lightest electric around, not a pretty picture.
How trailers fit into the law is difficult. I don't think there's separate law for them, and as all English cycling law, (with one exception*), refers to "Bicycles, Tricycles, and Bicycles with four or more wheels - -", I assume that when I pull my trailer it's a "Bicycle with four or more wheels". If that's so, the trailer's 14 kilos and any load must be included in the 40 kilo limit, meaning I break the law all the time.
*The exception is the Bridleways act of 1964 which only refers to Bicycles having permission to access. However, Sustrans has had an assurance that tricyclists etc will not be prosecuted.
I've just been trying to picture a 20 kilo anorexic riding the lightest electric around, not a pretty picture.
How trailers fit into the law is difficult. I don't think there's separate law for them, and as all English cycling law, (with one exception*), refers to "Bicycles, Tricycles, and Bicycles with four or more wheels - -", I assume that when I pull my trailer it's a "Bicycle with four or more wheels". If that's so, the trailer's 14 kilos and any load must be included in the 40 kilo limit, meaning I break the law all the time.
*The exception is the Bridleways act of 1964 which only refers to Bicycles having permission to access. However, Sustrans has had an assurance that tricyclists etc will not be prosecuted.
Oh well that scuppers that one then.
I was going to build a four wheeled bike, two shoppers bolted together then run the motor of three 75 Ah batteries.
I have got three of these batteries on the back of my bike at the moment as a prototyope to try and assess the range. But each battery is 25 kg.
Oh well, back to the car.
Chris
I was going to build a four wheeled bike, two shoppers bolted together then run the motor of three 75 Ah batteries.
I have got three of these batteries on the back of my bike at the moment as a prototyope to try and assess the range. But each battery is 25 kg.
Oh well, back to the car.
Chris
I'm not so sure Chris.
The Cycles Maximus and similar trikes, both cargo and taxi versions, are also available as electrics. One version uses a low geared Heinzmann front hub motor, not very powerful though. The other uses a very powerful Lynch axle motor which is listed as nominally about 200 watts, a bit of a joke since as the speed drops, it can hit over 3 kw, some 4 hp. There are also some four wheeler electrics around. They are all extremely heavy, from memory around 140 kg or more, but I'll refresh my memory and be back with more details in this same entry if you refer back to it.
Further answer posted in the next column.
The Cycles Maximus and similar trikes, both cargo and taxi versions, are also available as electrics. One version uses a low geared Heinzmann front hub motor, not very powerful though. The other uses a very powerful Lynch axle motor which is listed as nominally about 200 watts, a bit of a joke since as the speed drops, it can hit over 3 kw, some 4 hp. There are also some four wheeler electrics around. They are all extremely heavy, from memory around 140 kg or more, but I'll refresh my memory and be back with more details in this same entry if you refer back to it.
Further answer posted in the next column.
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Yes, I was right about the 60 kg, just checked.
Also, four-wheeled vehicles are outside the requirements of the 1983 EAPC Regulations: "Four wheeled vehicles and vehicles propelled by an internal combustion engine are also considered to be motor vehicles".
Miles
Also, four-wheeled vehicles are outside the requirements of the 1983 EAPC Regulations: "Four wheeled vehicles and vehicles propelled by an internal combustion engine are also considered to be motor vehicles".
Miles
The Maximus "chassis" is 75 kg, with power about 121 kg upwards depending on van or taxi body, motor and batteries. Both powered versions use lead acid batteries, the Heinzmann with 984 w/h, the Lynch motor with 828 w/h. A test I've seen of the taxi versionhad the total weight with rider and passengers as over 300 kg.
The width is 1.2 metres and I think that's about the legal limit in England, but it appears that these vehicles are legal on the road and are being used in some places without special permissions. Cycles Maximus could advise you further if you ring as a potential customer:
Tel: 01225 319414
Obviously this conflicts with Miles advice, as do the four wheel advertising bikes and cyclevans currently in use in London and other cities, so the maximus advice might clear that up.
The width is 1.2 metres and I think that's about the legal limit in England, but it appears that these vehicles are legal on the road and are being used in some places without special permissions. Cycles Maximus could advise you further if you ring as a potential customer:
Tel: 01225 319414
Obviously this conflicts with Miles advice, as do the four wheel advertising bikes and cyclevans currently in use in London and other cities, so the maximus advice might clear that up.
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Looking at this page it seems you shouldn't have a problem Chris. Scroll all the way down and look at the hugely heavy outfits in use on the road and you'll see what I mean:
New Electric Pedicabs - Rickshaw Trikes for the 21st Century
Just keep within the width limit.
Here's all the places where these are operating, mostly on the road:
Aberdeen, Bath, Bedford, Minehead (Butlins), Cambridge, Cardiff, Croydon, Darlington, Edinburgh, The Eden Project (Cornwall), Farnham, Gloucester, Lancaster, Leicester, Lisburn (Northern Ireland) London, Luton, Manchester, Newcastle, Nottingham, Oban (Scotland), Rochdale, York, Weston-Super-Mare, Wokingham
New Electric Pedicabs - Rickshaw Trikes for the 21st Century
Just keep within the width limit.
Here's all the places where these are operating, mostly on the road:
Aberdeen, Bath, Bedford, Minehead (Butlins), Cambridge, Cardiff, Croydon, Darlington, Edinburgh, The Eden Project (Cornwall), Farnham, Gloucester, Lancaster, Leicester, Lisburn (Northern Ireland) London, Luton, Manchester, Newcastle, Nottingham, Oban (Scotland), Rochdale, York, Weston-Super-Mare, Wokingham
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I accept that you're right Miles and am not challenging you in any way. It seems that like so many areas of cycling and related law, considerable liberties are freely taken.
Local authorities seem to have some say in the operation of cycle taxis for example, though I've seen nothing in law about that. Somehow the Maximus and another trike firm get away with it, also two companies producing four wheelers, with passenger, goods and advertising hoarding back bodies, one with electric power option.
Local authorities seem to have some say in the operation of cycle taxis for example, though I've seen nothing in law about that. Somehow the Maximus and another trike firm get away with it, also two companies producing four wheelers, with passenger, goods and advertising hoarding back bodies, one with electric power option.
And the crucial statement in that Department for Transport factsheet is this:
"This fact sheet provides our view of the current situation but should not be taken as definitive legal advice as this is a matter for the courts."
i.e. Do as you please but it's at your own risk, so be sensible and avoid a court challenge.
Cycles Maximus and the others must be operating on this basis.
"This fact sheet provides our view of the current situation but should not be taken as definitive legal advice as this is a matter for the courts."
i.e. Do as you please but it's at your own risk, so be sensible and avoid a court challenge.
Cycles Maximus and the others must be operating on this basis.
Hi flecc,
Personally, I think it's a great use for pedal-assist. I really think they should warn people that they're not legal on the road, though. The continuous rating of the motor could be argued over, in court; the unladen weight is fairly easily determined Tricycle rickshaws have had a lot of opposition from the taxi lobby, in London - this would be an easy target for them....
Miles
Personally, I think it's a great use for pedal-assist. I really think they should warn people that they're not legal on the road, though. The continuous rating of the motor could be argued over, in court; the unladen weight is fairly easily determined
Tricycle rickshaws have had a lot of opposition from the taxi lobby, in London - this would be an easy target for them....Miles
Hi Miles. Yes, the position over the Central London trike taxis looks as though it must come to a head sometime. It would be good for the users to be warned about the regulations, but I think the authorities are in a trap there. If they warn on what's being done but don't take action, they're condoning the breach, so they stay silent.
I found a similar situation locally. When a local authority wasn't looking after walker's interests due to lack of funds, I spent a year and a half voluntarily cutting through a network of new footpaths in local woods and building fences and gates etc. I should have asked permission, but couldn't for the following reasons. If the Council officially knew and approved, I'd have to have had Health and Safety training first. Trouble was, my age meant I fell outside the upper limit for expenditure on training, the need to look after local taxpayers interests etc. So they looked the other way, happy to get the work done, and I did it anyway regardless. The follow up is that they can't acknowledge the existence of the paths, despite many visitors and two Wildlife trusts coming from over a wide area to use them.
It's a mad world.
I found a similar situation locally. When a local authority wasn't looking after walker's interests due to lack of funds, I spent a year and a half voluntarily cutting through a network of new footpaths in local woods and building fences and gates etc. I should have asked permission, but couldn't for the following reasons. If the Council officially knew and approved, I'd have to have had Health and Safety training first. Trouble was, my age meant I fell outside the upper limit for expenditure on training, the need to look after local taxpayers interests etc. So they looked the other way, happy to get the work done, and I did it anyway regardless. The follow up is that they can't acknowledge the existence of the paths, despite many visitors and two Wildlife trusts coming from over a wide area to use them.
It's a mad world.
so thats it cut and dried then
Thankyou for all your input.
I think I'll probably go ahead with the project, and argue with PC plod as the need arises.
I seem to do a lot on the fringes of the law. The confident oratory of your interpretation of the facts usually flaws the uninformed plod.
and if all else fails we will pull the dissabled card.
I intend to create a seat in between the two shoppers so I could move into the territory of the taxis, but a two man powered version.
Nice to be on a forum where noones called me mad yet.
Chris
Thankyou for all your input.
I think I'll probably go ahead with the project, and argue with PC plod as the need arises.
I seem to do a lot on the fringes of the law. The confident oratory of your interpretation of the facts usually flaws the uninformed plod.
and if all else fails we will pull the dissabled card.
I intend to create a seat in between the two shoppers so I could move into the territory of the taxis, but a two man powered version.
Nice to be on a forum where noones called me mad yet.
Chris
And I'm sure no-one ever will Chris, both you and your very interesting project are very welcome, as all the contributions to this thread have shown.
Have a look at this photo I've put on my site for you to see. The yellow mudguard quad two seater is a Brox, towing a trailer, the smaller one's to the rear are the Baby Brox. Made in England by Rob Brock and in use on the roads here, and I believe an electric assist is available:
brox
Have a look at this photo I've put on my site for you to see. The yellow mudguard quad two seater is a Brox, towing a trailer, the smaller one's to the rear are the Baby Brox. Made in England by Rob Brock and in use on the roads here, and I believe an electric assist is available:
brox
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