Watt difference does it make?

Perusing the PowaCycle website recently I noticed that the "Cambridge" has a 200W motor and the "Salisbury" has a 180W motor. What would this mean in terms of performance and hill-climbing assistance between the two bikes? Other than styling, everything else about the bikes appears to be the same...

On a 7% (4 deg.) gradient, less than 1 mph difference

Less than 1mph difference on the flat, too...

Hmm...not much difference then! I'm thinking of purchasing one of these machines as an affordable way into electric biking. Both seem to meet my demands of affordability/availability of batteries/not a "grey" import/light enough to be rideable if battery goes flat/doesn't look too wierd etc As I'm intending to use this as a commuting machine, a round trip of 12 miles with some short sharp hills, I was just wondering whether the 200W would offer any noticeable advantage over the 180W motor? Anybody have any experience of the Powacycle Salisbury/Cambridge? A to B gave the Windsor a reasonable review...

Hmm...not much difference then! I'm thinking of purchasing one of these machines as an affordable way into electric biking. Both seem to meet my demands of affordability/availability of batteries/not a "grey" import/light enough to be rideable if battery goes flat/doesn't look too wierd etc As I'm intending to use this as a commuting machine, a round trip of 12 miles with some short sharp hills, I was just wondering whether the 200W would offer any noticeable advantage over the 180W motor? Anybody have any experience of the Powacycle Salisbury/Cambridge? A to B gave the Windsor a reasonable review...

 

I tried a Powacycle Salisbury out in Spain last September and found the motor assistance incredibly light. We were on charity ride near Orihuela, most of which I completed on a Torq, but I went some of the way on a borrowed powacycle and was surprised by how weedy the motor was in comparison to the Torq, to the point of asking 'is this thing switched on?'!

The motor type could make a difference though. The Cambridge 200 watt motor is brushless, doubtless a Hall effect motor, while the Windsor/Salisbury have 180 watt brush motors. Hall effect motors tend to give better torque power which is what's needed for hill climbing.

 

Also, the published 270 watt peak power of the Windsor/Salisbury is about as low as one can possibly get, even the old twist had 390 watts and the eZee bikes peak at either 500 or 576 watts according to model. Therefore those latter bikes have just half the power of those eZees.

 

Since you've mentioned steep hills, my strong recommendation is, try before buy.

I was only comparing power levels, of course. How the bikes compare in practise is another matter...

Hey Flecc, according to their website both motors are described as being "intelligent brushless" - wonder what that could mean?

Just looked at their website. It says the Windsor is "brush" [edit: in the PDF it says "brushless"] and the Salisbury is "brushless". All the motors are said to be intelligent, but they don't give any IQs...

Edited January 4, 200719 yr by Miles

I tried a Powacycle Salisbury out in Spain last September and found the motor assistance incredibly light. We were on charity ride near Orihuela, most of which I completed on a Torq, but I went some of the way on a borrowed powacycle and was surprised by how weedy the motor was in comparison to the Torq, to the point of asking 'is this thing switched on?'!

 

My previous electric bike (Cyclone) was a little like that, at only 200W and 24v. I quite like the term egg-whisk (from AtoB if I recall?)

 

It had nowhere near as much initial acceleration as my Torq, more like a gentle push. However once you got going it was surprisingly easy to ride and cruised at 18-19mph. Obviously living in E.Anglia this is not much of a problem, but I can't imagine my old Cyclone coping with steep hills.

I took the statement on the more info button on the home page as my source. Most of the 180 watt motors in China are older brush motor designs and are being gradually superceded by more modern brushless designs.

 

Brush motors use small carbon blocks rubbing on a series of connections on the motor shaft to make the sequence of power pulses to drive the motor. As this is a mechanical way of doing things, it wears and is less reliable than the modern alternative, though they can perform well for years.

 

The modern way is the Hall effect motor. These have magnetic sensors built into the motor which determine the rotational position of the motor. They send this information as sequential pulse signals to a controller which then intelligently dishes out the power as and where required. Since this is all done with solid state electronics there's no moving parts other than the motor itself so has the potential for very long life. Also, the speed of the electrons means a higher degree of precision in operating the motor than can be achieved by the comparatively crude contact between carbon blocks and the rotor contact strips.

 

I've deliberately avoided the technical names for the parts involved since they would probably be less than helpful.

Synergie appear to have a bike, the "Mistral", for the same price as the aforementioned Powacycles, only this time with 36V Lithium batteries, anyone know anything of this machine? Does the difference in voltage signify much? The Twist was "only" 24V yet it's hill-climbing ability is often lauded...

All other things being equal, a higher voltage system will be more efficient.

And the Twist's hill climbing was due to it's motor driving through the gears, so it had car like advantages in that the rider could change down for the motor as well as themselves.

The windsor (and Salisbury - both the same running gear) does have a BRUSHLESS motor. It's a mistake on the site, which has now been ammended

 

The Cambridge does have a bit more torque than the gentle asssistance of the Windsor/Salisbury. Still not in the hill-climbing league of some bikes by the sound of it, but will still make any hill easier.

 

Out of interest; with these gear driven Giants, do you only get max (15Mph) speed out of 5th gear, so any lower gear will cut out at a lower speed?

Yes that's correct Carl, though it's gradual phase down rather than a sharp cut off in accordance with Euro law. I've put an SRAM P5 on my twist so each gear has a limitation but it's not noticed since it falls after the natural change up point. I don't notice it in top gear either as I've opted for a 17 tooth sprocket which gives assistance to 17 mph which is near the natural limit for the motor power anyway.

 

Models as standard with the SRAM normally have a 19 tooth sprocket giving the 15 mph limit, with gradual phase down from around 13.5 mph.

 

The software is organised to give more motor power with lower cadence, so those using most assistance are the least likely to reach the cut-out point anyway since they choose to ride with low cadences. I use that as an option. When I feel lazy I pedal slowly and let the motor do most of the work, or vice versa.

 

Thanks for clearing up the brushless motor point, it did seem odd that you'd still have brush models.

Edited January 9, 200719 yr by flecc

Use of gears

 

Can anyone tell me if the Windsor or the Cambridge uses the motor driving through the gears or do you get a straight drive with different gears to assist the pedaller - as with Powabyke?

New PowaCycle Windsor LPX

 

Hi Rod,

 

Took delivery of the above just yesterday, swopped it in at no extra cost for a Lynx LPX which went u/s after a month, it could not be fixed because my retailer couldn't get the spares from PowaCycle. The Windsor ebike drives through the hub in the centre of the wheel directly, as do all PowaCycle offerings.

 

I find the Windsor LPX motor not so strong as the Lynx LPX even though the Windsor is 200watts and the Lynx was 180 watts - reminds me a bit of that flashy bulb advert that only last a short time - but boy wasn't it bright.

 

Regards Terry

 

I find the Windsor LPX motor not so strong as the Lynx LPX even though the Windsor is 200watts and the Lynx was 180 watts - reminds me a bit of that flashy bulb advert that only last a short time - but boy wasn't it bright.

 

Regards Terry

 

These wattage figures like 180, 200 and 250 are just notional ones for legal purposes, estimates of average power over time.

 

The actual peak powers are usually higher, often very much so. The Windsor LPX peak output is roughly 300 watts, one of the lower ones. Some of the higher power bikes from Wisper, eZee, Powabyke and others have peak outputs between 500 and 700 watts, substantially more than the Windsor. Of course that sort of thing does tend to add weight in various ways.

.

PowerCycle Windsor LPX

 

Did 9 miles today on a full battery charge 29.2 volts, the battery indicator on top of the battery showed half full, and I was feeling half empty The voltage reading at this point was 26.2 volts and the lack of power assistance was noticeable.

 

Regards Terry

Thanks for info

 

Hi Terry

 

Many thanks for clearing up the drive system and gears on the Powacycle. I have a Powabyke Commuter at the moment and have ridden it for three years but the sheer weight of the thing is getting me down. I am seriously considering one of the Powacycle bikes especially now that LiPo batteries are now available. From the sound of things you don't seem too happy with yours?

 

All the best

 

Rod

Hi Terry

 

Many thanks for clearing up the drive system and gears on the Powacycle. I have a Powabyke Commuter at the moment and have ridden it for three years but the sheer weight of the thing is getting me down. I am seriously considering one of the Powacycle bikes especially now that LiPo batteries are now available. From the sound of things you don't seem too happy with yours?

 

All the best

 

Rod

 

Hi Rod, If you can wait a couple of months Powabyke will have 3 new models available weighing no more than 25kg.

 

If you email me your details and I will add you to the list of people who want a brochure. fcurran@powabyke.com

 

Regards

 

FrankC

Powabyke Ltd

Hi Rod,

 

I really do recommend that you try before you buy, perhaps I am expecting too much for my money from these ebikes, I mean you are talking to someone who still moans at paying more than 1/3d for a pint of IPA

 

I was pleased with the performance of the Lynx LPX, it would go up to 18mph on the flat, well nearly flat without any pedalling, pulling up my local hill - 9 mph at the top. After one month it started to make a grinding noise from the rear hub motor, then it went dead.

 

PowaCycle did not have any spare parts for my cycle shop to make a repair to the Lynx, and PowaCycle haven't any new stock of the Lynx, so it could not be replaced.

 

I was offered money back or a replacement bike, so selected the PowaCycle Windsor LPX as a straight swap. The Windsor has a top speed of 15 mph on the same road that the Lynx would do 18 mph. The hill which the lynx climbed with pedal assist at 9 mph, the Windsor is doing 6 mph.

 

So pretty conclusive proof that you can have a Lynx with a good speed available, but only lasts a month - Or a Windsor with a much lower top speed and not so good at hill climbing, which hopefully will last longer than a month, but as I only picked it up on Monday last (two days experience) - my opinion is really a trifle premature.

 

I need the exercise so perhaps the Windsor is better for me. If you are using it for serious transport then Flecc has used a couple of expensive bikes for hundreds of years, and seems quite happy about their reliability, but as I have just entered the realm of ebike, I can only speak as I have found, and seems like too much experience in so short a time

 

Regards Terry

Edited July 2, 200817 yr by Terrytraveller

To add to Terry's advice Rod, although very much lighter,the Windsor and Salisbury are very much less powerful than the Powabyke, so despite the weight advantage you'd still find they feel weak, especially on hill climbing. The speed performance is similar though, neither motor driving to very high speeds.

.

Nice to see that old threads never die, they just get recharged!