Water Water Everywhere

[Eglwyseg]

I posted here about a fortnight ago regarding my battery cutting out. We were able to ascertain I needed a new battery.

The new battery has been fantastic but now I have another problem. In my part of the country I have been out on the bike most days and managed to avoid the showers, until yesterday,

I was 10 miles from home when the heavens opened. It wasn't long before the electrics were not responding and lots of clunking and banging from the motor then everything went dead so had to resort to old fashioned pedal power to get me home.

This morning I decided to investigate and thought I would open up the throttle as easiest option and knew it had, had a soaking anyway. Now I'm sure all was intact in the junction box other than it looked like it had been put together by an ape, insulation broken and wires tightly scrubbing. I straightened things to put it all back then a tag broke away from a transistor presumably because it had been squashed in when it was put together. The other two leads from the transistor were quite sound so wondered if the one that broke had a bashing when screwing down the junction box cover. Throttles are cheap enough so have ordered another.

The connections all around the controller were all soaked so decided on a hunch, I would open up the control box itself. Well bloody hell, half a cup of water spilled out. I would find it very difficult to believe this unit is still serviceable as it's full of electronic components. So will order a new one while I'm at it. I'm astonished they are so cheap, as little as a tenner on eBay, even cheaper than the throttle at fifteen pounds.

I have an idea the control box has been collecting water for a long time as the water that came out was very milky looking.

Anyone else ever had this experience? The battery is fine but wonder will I have done any damage to the motor as it made a few clunking noises as the electrics failed.

Does anyone think I need to look further?

Thanks.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

It's difficult to comment without knowing what bike you have. If your controller sits in a compartment under a behind the seatpost battery, the worst thing is when people attempt to seal it. You need to leave the bottom unsealed so that any water that gets in can get out.

Not all controllers are equal. Some have diabolical control systems. Cheapest isn't always the best. A £10 controller might be OK for testing that your motor works be for committing £50 to a decent one.

Post a link to the one you buy because connection is not always straight-forward.

 

[Eglwyseg]

I have already ordered the throttle, that seemed straight forward enough after I realised I only needed a four wire device, this is what I have on now.

The controller is a different game altogether and have held back until I can get more info. I would have thought there would be an industry standard but there isn't. Wiring colour codes and connectors appear different with every model.

My Ebike was an upgraded fitting kit to my Marin Hybrid so not really a big name, all comes from China.

When I can figure what exactly to get, yes, I will let you have a link.

 

[LeighPing]

I was 10 miles from home when the heavens opened. It wasn't long before the electrics were not responding and lots of clunking and banging from the motor then everything went dead so had to resort to old fashioned pedal power to get me home.

I'm sorry for your troubles and any damage you've sustained. Unfortunately, there's no going back with that. I'm just sharing that I now carry a metre of clingfilm with all 3 of my ebikes. It's only a temporary measure to get you home. Albeit a Godsend when you get caught out in the rain. You do need to scrunge it on so it'll stay on in the wind and rain. Here's some pics for future reference. Hopefully it'll rain soon and I'll show it in action.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I have already ordered the throttle, that seemed straight forward enough after I realised I only needed a four wire device, this is what I have on now.

All throttles are three wires. If there's any other wires, they're for something else, like battery LEDs or a switch.

 

[Eglwyseg]

I'm sorry for your troubles and any damage you've sustained. Unfortunately, there's no going back with that. I'm just sharing that I now carry a metre of clingfilm with all 3 of my ebikes. It's only a temporary measure to get you home. Albeit a Godsend when you get caught out in the rain. You do need to scrunge it on so it'll stay on in the wind and rain. Here's some pics for future reference. Hopefully it'll rain soon and I'll show it in action.

View attachment 19679 View attachment 19680 View attachment 19681 View attachment 19682 View attachment 19683

All throttles are three wires. If there's any other wires, they're for something else, like battery LEDs or a switch.

I'm sorry for your troubles and any damage you've sustained. Unfortunately, there's no going back with that. I'm just sharing that I now carry a metre of clingfilm with all 3 of my ebikes. It's only a temporary measure to get you home. Albeit a Godsend when you get caught out in the rain. You do need to scrunge it on so it'll stay on in the wind and rain. Here's some pics for future reference. Hopefully it'll rain soon and I'll show it in action.

View attachment 19679 View attachment 19680 View attachment 19681 View attachment 19682 View attachment 19683

Hecky, are we that vulnerable to rain, I'm sure these things could have been designed with a little waterproofing in mind.

As you say Leigh. it does get you home. I'll take the hint.

More egg on my face again later this morning, one of my lady friends asked, what happened to that cape I bought you, it would have kept you and the electrics dry. Oh dear, it was in my saddle bag the whole time. Duh!

 

[Eglwyseg]

All throttles are three wires. If there's any other wires, they're for something else, like battery LEDs or a switch.

Thank for that, then in that case my forth wire is for the three LEDS that displays the battery status. There are some selling with five and six wires but don't know what they do.

I'm struggling somewhat at the moment looking at controllers.

They ALL seem to be made in China and almost all sold from China, though that is not a problem but it's just knowing a good from a bad one. The myriad different cables and connectors coming out of them is another problem as I don't really want to be chopping wires though if it has to be?

Perhaps I will take your earlier advice and buy a cheap one for now for as you say it ought prove the motor is fine

 

[Eglwyseg]

It's difficult to comment without knowing what bike you have. If your controller sits in a compartment under a behind the seatpost battery, the worst thing is when people attempt to seal it. You need to leave the bottom unsealed so that any water that gets in can get out.

Not all controllers are equal. Some have diabolical control systems. Cheapest isn't always the best. A £10 controller might be OK for testing that your motor works be for committing £50 to a decent one.

Post a link to the one you buy because connection is not always straight-forward.

I'm not too sure whether I have damaged the motor now as I have just discovered there is a lot of resistance to push the bike backwards. There was always some resistance, just a little but this is almost a braking effect. I've tried turning the bike over, wheels up, and turned the wheel with the motor, forward, that was fine, just as always but turning it backwards there is now a lot of resistance.

Is it possible all these components are dead?

If the motor is now useless then I might just consider a new kit as they are fairly cheap because I already have a new battery.

A bit disappointing really.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

We can't help unless you give us details of what you have. show us a photo of the controller. You must show all the connectors clearly.

Three wire throttles have just the throttle. 4-wire ones have the indicator LEDs. 5-wire ones have a switch (for whatever you want - wires are open). 6-wire ones have a switch and indicator LEDs. You must be careful when connecting a throttle with indicator LEDs because the wire for the LEDs carries battery voltage which would wipe out the throttle and probably the controller too if you connect it to the wrong partner. Always double check which wire is which before connecting. You can't always go by colours either. best to check with a meter.

 

[Eglwyseg]

I posted here about a fortnight ago regarding my battery cutting out. We were able to ascertain I needed a new battery.

The new battery has been fantastic but now I have another problem. In my part of the country I have been out on the bike most days and managed to avoid the showers, until yesterday,

I was 10 miles from home when the heavens opened. It wasn't long before the electrics were not responding and lots of clunking and banging from the motor then everything went dead so had to resort to old fashioned pedal power to get me home.

This morning I decided to investigate and thought I would open up the throttle as easiest option and knew it had, had a soaking anyway. Now I'm sure all was intact in the junction box other than it looked like it had been put together by an ape, insulation broken and wires tightly scrubbing. I straightened things to put it all back then a tag broke away from a transistor presumably because it had been squashed in when it was put together. The other two leads from the transistor were quite sound so wondered if the one that broke had a bashing when screwing down the junction box cover. Throttles are cheap enough so have ordered another.

The connections all around the controller were all soaked so decided on a hunch, I would open up the control box itself. Well bloody hell, half a cup of water spilled out. I would find it very difficult to believe this unit is still serviceable as it's full of electronic components. So will order a new one while I'm at it. I'm astonished they are so cheap, as little as a tenner on eBay, even cheaper than the throttle at fifteen pounds.

I have an idea the control box has been collecting water for a long time as the water that came out was very milky looking.

Anyone else ever had this experience? The battery is fine but wonder will I have done any damage to the motor as it made a few clunking noises as the electrics failed.

Does anyone think I need to look further?

Thanks.

Here is an inexpensive workaround, as I see, for my problems.

A big problem I see with self installed ebike kits, they all seem to do the same things, more or less but there is no industry standards as to how to interface the separate components, all appear to have differing connectors and in some instances, no same colour coded wiring for individual circuits.

I would foresee a nightmare trying to swap a component over if it wasn't the identical part as the original OEM, perhaps even committing further expensive damage in the trying?

When attempting my initial fault finding, the throttle was damaged or some perhaps doubt, I may have damaged it myself.

The controller, I can't believe, would survive being full of water with both analogue electronic components as well as delicate digital ICs to potentially short/burn out.

Then as I discovered, there is a question mark over the motor as it shows a different characteristic when the motored wheel is spun by hand in reverse, as it now has, an almost, braking effect, rather than the slight resistance it showed before the flooding.

I have, as you know, a brand new battery so looked around for an ebike kit that didn't include a battery or the charger.

I'm absolutely astonished to discover a kit for just under £112 delivered!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/311702879759?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

Four buyers have given it five stars with one claiming he's going back for another for a friend. The kit I have bought and now, awaiting delivery, has a 90 day guarantee.

I thought I would share my experience with you and thank you all for the useful comments.

Best regards.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

The motor is probably OK. You must disconnect it completely to test it. There should be slight resistance when you turn it backwards and it should be free in the forwards direction.

If you test it connected and you have blown mosfets in the controller, it will have substantial resistance in the backwards direction.

 

[Eglwyseg]

Thank you once again Dave.

I'm sure you are correct. Upturned the bike and tried as you suggested and what a considerable difference between 'connected' and 'disconnected'.

From uTube I also discovered a method to prove the motor windings. Again, while the leads are disconnected, there are three, short each lead in turn with another, but not all three together, until all three combinations are tried and on each contact there will be found slight resistance on the *forward* turn of the wheel, if the windings are good.

With that, and your motor/mosfet test, it looks my motor is fine but will test it electrically when the new kit arrives. If all is well then I should have a spare front wheel with a motor, which I will keep, though I suppose it could find it's way to eBay.

I could probably replace the mosfets in the old controller, should be easy to identify and get hold of, but would probably be out of my depth when we got down to chip level if other stuff is blown so I'm fairly glad I can start again and just fit a new box.

The old motor is an 8 FUN and supposed to be the Rolls Royce of these brushless motors but I have seen yet another YouTube video where the planetary gears go lose on their shafts and eventually make the motor unserviceable so perhaps not a bad idea having the insurance of a spare motor [and ready on a wheel] if things go wrong in the future.

I have a car and use the bike, only for the joy of it but like to know it's ready and waiting if a have the urge to get out.

Thanks.

 

[Eglwyseg]

The new kit arrived and now fitted, the quality, outstanding!

As an aside, anyone considering an ebike upgrade, together with this kit and a separate 13 AH battery, could upgrade for £300 and still have change. My only downside was, though, the wheel rim was a quality, double walled affair, the inner tube had a short reach valve so had to drive out and buy a separate tube with a long reach valve.

The kit was very easy to assemble and even came with cable ties and a cable tidy so was able to make a very professional looking finish.

I haven't been able to test electrically, the old motor, because the two motors are wired differently. Both have the three, heavy gauge wires for the power but the new motor also had another four lighter gauge wires, not quite sure for what, the Hall effect sensor? Dave, has led me to believe the old motor is probably okay and coupled with a test of my own, agreed.

Going begging, are two wired brake calipers as I have chosen not to use them. After six years riding ebike I'm well and truly conditioned to letting go the throttle on braking and besides, my Marin bike came with integrated, Shimano brake calipers and thumb gear shifters.

I didn't realise, all ebikes in Europe, according to my instructions, are required to have Pedal Assist Sensors [PAS] fitted. Is this really so? Fine I would imagine, riding canal towpaths all day but first sign of a half decent hill, where the heck will the power come from? And of course, with PAS one would not have the option for fully 100% manual, pedal power which I want for myself, depending on the run. I have rode my ebike for six years without PAS and unless someone points me to some serious safety issues, then I won't be installing it on my new kit.

Oh, one last word! I have installed the new kit in such a way, not to have it so vulnerable to rain and road spray.

Well pleased and so glad to be back on the road.

Hell, it all looks so smart!

Thank you, all.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

PAS is much better than a throttle for normal riding. The motor goes when you pedal and stops when you stop pedalling. You can set the power to anything to zero or maximum, and normally several steps between, unless you have a crappy controller, like the one in the kit in your link above. I recommend that anybody who buys a kit should get one with an LCD and proper PAS system, they only cost a few pounds more.

In case you don't know, there's a potential problem when using only a throttle, especially full-width ones. When you're riding at full throttle and hit a pothole or similar bump, the impact on you can break the throttle end-stop, which is only thin plastic. Sometimes the magnet falls out. However it fails, you end up not being able to control the throttle anymore. If you try and stop the motor with the brake, you'll blow the controller and probably cook the motor too. You need to think about how you're going to cover that possibility.

If you have an open cable inner going down your crossbar, you can attach a spoke magnet to it from a cycle computer in conjunction with a reed switch or cycle computer sensor tied to the crossbar as a brake switch. They have two wires, which you join to the brake connector wires.

 

[Eglwyseg]

Well Dave, you really are one hell of a knowledge base and you have given me lots to think about.

It is a big coincidence by what you have described, in the scenario where the throttle breaks and thus, lose control. Why, I don't know, but I have always wondered what would happen if ever I lost the throttle control especially if on full acceleration. Just behind my seat is the ignition key for the battery and simply drooping my left and slightly behind I immediately come into contact with the key, don't have to look for it and has always been my plan in such an emergency, simply switch the battery, off, assuming I'm not about to hit anything!

I think I understand the principle of the work-around in your last paragraph, could you elaborate please?

Thanks.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

The throttle sensor gives half throttle when it isn't controlled by the correct magnetic field, so it isn't fail-safe. Instead, it fails into catastrophe.

• Buy one of these and cut the wire where it comes out of the computer holder.
• Fix the magnet to your rear brake cable half way along the cross-bar or down-tube (assuming that you have only the inner there).
• Cable-tie the sensor next to it
• Join the two wires to the controller's brake wires
• Slide the sensor into the position where the brake cuts the power with a little brake movement and fix it tight so that it can't move.
• The sensor is a switch. it goes on when the magnet comes close, so you want the magnet to move towards the sensor when you apply the brake. you use trial and error to get the exact best position.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bicycle-Bike-Computer-Speedometer-Speedo-Speedometer-Cycling-Waterproof-Wired-/302351356628?hash=item46658b92d4:g:lmUAAOSwwzhZQ28S

 

[Eglwyseg]

That is fabulous Dave, I have just ordered the bike computer from China so will have to wait a week or so, or whatever it takes, to arrive.

What a neat work-around and thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with me and so succinctly, I'm very grateful.

I'll put up a photo when done, show others how it works, with reference to your good self, sharing the 'design', of course!

Thank you.

Joseph