Warranty And Guarantees, Are They Worth The Paper They Are Not Written On?

flecc · Dec 26, 2007

I think only the end suppliers warranty is effective, so long as it meets with legal requirements, but I agree that it's would be best on paper.

However, where necessary I just print out the relevant web page. This is sufficient since if produced in a legal context, it would be for the supplier to prove that the document wasn't valid, not for the customer to prove it's validity.

In practice it wouldn't be challenged as fake, since to do so in a court would be to risk imprisonment.

Likewise, it wouldn't be a defence for an internet trader to say that the website entry was a mistake, since that constituted the conditions under which the transaction took place.
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flecc · Dec 26, 2007

The Kalkhoff warranty on bike and battery that 50cycles give is the very first item on the Agattu full details page John, so they are obviously serious about it by giving it such prominence. Since they haven't applied conditions there, it's by default unconditional within reasonability. Just print that page.

I can't speak of the manufacturer's warranty, the importer is free to pick their own, but I'm sure the manufacturer would want to honour their warranty. My opinion for what it's worth is that this manufacturer would probably support the importer in the event of a serious manufacturing fault on the bicycle cropping up in the third year. I personally see a very real difference in this issue between a European manufacturer and an Oriental one.
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Ian · Dec 26, 2007

Why don't you ask 50 cycles?

It's worth bearing in mind that paper documents are just as easy to forge as electronic ones, you only need a printer, something that almost everyone has.

All of the contractual documents I have received from 50cycles have been emailed in an electronic format, this is now perfectly acceptable in a legal sense providing that the document contains the same legaly required information as a paper document.

flecc · Dec 26, 2007

Aldby said:
Don't worry Flecc, I printed the web page before I got the bike.
But as I keep saying web pages change daily and anyone with basic IT skills can edit and alter a web page to say what ever they like whether it be 50cycles or someone else.

You have nothing to worry about there John.

As said, the onus is for the defendant to prove the web page copy you have is altered, and since I have the same copy produced on a different printer and stored here, that wouldn't be possible. So it's not really me being trusting.

It's quite probable others will also do this after seeing this thread, giving even more surety.

In any case, this issue is supposition based, and I know of nothing that says 50cycles would be the kind of company which would deny the existence of it's own former web pages. I think that after all the problems they've suffered with their other Li-ions, they are probably relieved and delighted to be able to give a two year manufacturer supported warranty.

Despite all this, the most unusual thing would be for anyone to need to claim on this battery before two years, batteries being such a proven strong point with Panasonic, including their previous Li-ions which they've been using for years on these motor units on some of their own bikes. I stand to be corrected, but to my knowledge they've used them for longer on e-bikes than anyone else.
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flecc · Dec 26, 2007

That is a different issue of course John, but it seems that it's being treated more seriously by the manufacturer now, his postings indicating he's realised just what a threat to his business these are now.

Hopefully things in this respect will improve, with importer, bike manufacturer and the original battery manufacturer now involved.

There's also the fact that this forum is now becoming an influential and powerful instrument for ensuring consumer satisfaction, though this needs using with care to avoid abuse devaluing it's strength in this respect.
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keithhazel · Dec 26, 2007

up to date webpage ???

im not knocking 50 cycles, well dare not as they delieverying a quando to me end of first week in january, hopefully !!!...when i looked at their webpage, which you would expect to be top marks as its their shop window so to speak, you click on quando folder which is in list on bottom right and it brings up that relivant page, there is a you tube video showing on the bottom right of the page, if you play it it shows what i thought was a quando with gears, but my error its the chain destresser or something (someone will tell me correct phrase) and its the quando 1...which they tell me is not sold anymore...well that confusion wasnt nessesary was it, why show what you not selling, then left hand side of page at the bottom there are 2 photo's..one is a quando 1 in red, with the caption.."only sold in silver".....so why show a lovely red one ???. then underneath there is a photo with the caption.."the quando 1 fully folded"....now im really confused, i did mention these things when i ordered my quando so with todays hi tech change a page in a second, i expected to see a change...wrong again...if 50 cycles had not the monopoly and somewhere else had a up to daye website im pretty sure i would have gone else where for confidence....cos right now im a bit worried

flecc · Dec 26, 2007

The Quando I was the original and main model Keith. Over time though, customers have shown an increasing preference for the Quando II model, so the original was very recently made no longer available. The publicity photos from eZee are still the originals, hence the differences you mention.

I don't think they are important, so long as the facts are there as they are. Models and specs change all the time, and it's best for the buyer to play safe and check for any changes.

Another make of e-bike is currently shown in an older version, and the manufacturer, one of the biggest bicycle producing groups, usually have more photos out of date than up to date!

And it's not only bikes. A certain car model I'm considering buying at the moment has been through a number of changes and options and it's difficult for me to be sure what the current situation is. Am I bothered? Of course not, I'll just ascertain the position before parting with money.

In your case Keith, the position is clear, with one exception, the Quando II spec has been unchanged throughout it's life, the only change being from NiMh to the Li-ion battery around a year ago.

The bikes used to come in a range of colours, but that eventually presented a problem with needing batteries in many colours as replacements. Since they shouldn't be stored long term, the colours were abandoned in favour of just silver in the interests of the customers. Since the fact that only silver is available is clearly stated, I don't see that as a problem. Even the world's largest car manufacturers sometimes show colours no longer available in their advertising photos.
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keithhazel · Dec 26, 2007

while i have no intention of dissagreeing with you Flecc as marvel at your knowledge on many topics, you say you know which car you are wanting and will see definate specs nearer the time, my point was that it was first hand experience for me so not a situation i "think" will bother others, i have as you know from my questions read many different bike specs, all folders and wanting now a 36 volt for sustained power,so when i have sifted the chaff and left the wheat and gone for broke, in a fashion as didnt want to part with a grand after extra's bought with it and after,the one and only bike that fits the bill wasnt clear in my mind due to info which i found played games,as in many things, its as easy to have correct info as incorrect info somewhere, and yes i could have asked all the questions i wanted on the phone except i want to make my mind up in time and not because there is someone on the other end waiting for me to decide on what they have just said, not to mention when ordering the bike and asking for a speedo and extra charger that he was adding them up while on the phone..845 for quando, 13 for speedo, 25 for charger........then corrected by someone where he was that the charger was 75....i would have told him that but it doesnt tell you on the extra's page how much they are....
so while i will agree with you on everything else and bow to your brilliant knowledge on bikes and their bits,i think it is paramount for any company to have as much correct and non confusing info on their website...
as i said befor im neither dissing 50 cycles and not argueing with you..
called sitting on the fence i think

flecc · Dec 26, 2007

I don't disagree at all Keith, ideally the website should be perfect, but very few if any are, so I don't upset myself about that, it's not a perfect world.

As said though, with the Quando II there's been no changes other than the battery.

All of the changes and product development were on the Quando I before the model II was introduced, so your's benefits from all that.

Here's those model one main changes over the years:

The original back brake was a horrible cheap Chinese band brake that would squeal at the slightest excuse, and you'll see a drum poking out of the left of the motor on which that was mounted. That was replaced by a decent V brake underslung on the rear A frame lower tubes.

The original freewheel was an 18 tooth standard one, leaving the bike with a single 54" gear, nearly impossible to pedal at much more than 9 mph. That was replaced by a 14 tooth BMX freewheel to give a good compromise gear of just under 70", possible to pedal at up to 15 mph, or a sprint at up to 17 mph, while still low enough to help on almost any hill.

LED lighting was added, powered from a twistgrip switch by the main battery.

I've mentioned all this to show that you and others can always use this site to get most answers, even though manufacturer's sites aren't always fully informative, it's a major purpose of this forum of course. I certainly don't know it all, but others here have a lot of expertise on other makes and models so help is usually available from someone.
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keithhazel · Dec 26, 2007

thanks for that, i dare say i will think of something else i need to know, getting the sort of panniers like yours isnt easy, i have got some off e-bay , Page Not Responding cost me £13.30 includeing postage...which are not bad for starters but didnt manage to get the extra wide ones you had, the site you gave the link to wasnt displaying any of that type then, i will keep looking , i have two weeks till my bike will arrive to find the best i can...on one part it mentions re-inforced tyres yet somewhere else i found the phrase punctureless tyres.....which is it please, i had punctureless inner tubes fitted on my synergy i sold. when nuying bike the only thought he had was it was "reinforced"...what exactly does that mean...

thanks

flecc · Dec 27, 2007

They are puncture resistant tyres Keith, and that's usually achieved by them having a tough reinforcing layer of Kevlar or similar material, so it's the same thing really. I never had a puncture on my Quando in the eight months or so before converting it and changing the tyres, so they obviously were effective at avoiding punctures.

On panniers, the 16 litre Altura ones that many bike shops stock have roughly the same capacity, and I have a pair of those that I also use, and they fit the Quando ok. They are usually £24.99 the pair, and they do have the advantage of a separate zipped top pocket for smaller items, plus the ability to carry a spare eZee battery securely.
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Ian · Dec 27, 2007

Ambiguous Warranty

I have to say that regarding the warranty details, particularly on the Kalkhoff, the 50-cycles site does seem to be very ambiguous. In law the details given on the product pages are simply an "invitation to treat", or an offer to negotiate and at this stage do not form part of a contact (i.e.. there is no obligation for the retailer to supply goods matching the description or price). If however the retailer accepts accepts an order based on these pages (electronically or otherwise), then the quoted price and description may form part of a subsequent contract or may be over-ridden by terms and conditions that the customer has agreed to, which in this case give a shorter warranty as has been noted. The matter is further confused by the fact that in the FAQ section battery warranty is quoted as being 6 months, of course we know that that applies to the Ezee batteries but the website does not say that. In addition the supplied invoice, at least in my experience, gives a bare minimum or information, making no mention of warranty details.

So what is the warranty on the Panasonic battery, 2 years as stated on the product page, 1 year as stated in the T&C's or 6 months as stated in the FAQ's. I think I know the answer but this important issue has the potential to become a minefield.

I personally don't believe there is any deliberate intention to deceive and like most members of this forum do understand the various warranties, but I do feel that 50cycles (and others) should tidy up their site and business stationary on important contractual matters.

ITSPETEINIT · Dec 27, 2007

Where the buck stops.

Ambiguous Warranty:
Quote: Ian – 27th December 2007:
”I personally don't believe there is any deliberate intention to deceive and like most members of this forum do understand the various warranties, but I do feel that 50cycles (and others) should tidy up their site and business stationary on important contractual matters.”

I raised this subject many, many months ago on this Forum and in direct communication with 50Cycles and received scant attention of my efforts. I am embarrassed that my repetitiousness may be boring the readers. What should one do if one is ignored?

The particular action that I proposed was that 50Cycles should take responsibility for what they posted on their website. There were so many errors, ambiguities and obfuscations over many months that one could be forgiven if one received the impression that 50Cycles deliberately intended to deceive either by mis-stating a matter of fact or by clouding the issue”.
They do not react to corrective advice: in fact, as often as not, they ignore the matter even when brought directly to their attention. Does 50Cycles find it abhorrent to take advice? Or does this distract them from running the business?

Quote: 50Cycles “Integrity” 3/8/07
Hope this answers a lot of the questions over the last 24 hours and hope that I can get on with the day to day running of our business now, without having to spend my time defending the constant skepticism of our quality and integrity.
Well, they are still having to defend their quality and integrity against ‘constant scepticism’ because they make no corrections and if they continue not to do so their integrity is bound to be questioned.

When I bought two cycles from them in May 2006 (delivered July 2006) the detail of the Guarantee (as it was clearly stated to be in that ‘one liner’: “Guarantee: 1 years free parts and repairs”) was vague, to say the least. My efforts to obtain clarification were first ignored, but when I pressed I got the reply “You send the bike to us, we repair it and return it to you”. Subsequently, when I requested that the guarantee should be in writing, they replied: “The Guarantee is at the point of sale”. Baffling or what?

My relationship with 50Cycles seemed to me to be built on ‘shifting sand’.
One could be forgiven for believing that there was an attempt to deceive or deliberately cloud the issue. If there is NOT that intention, why, after all I have brought (has been brought) to their attention, is there still no clarification, by way of separation, that the Warranty for the Lithium Battery is for “6 months only” clearly stated on the cycle’s Specification where the battery is referred to, or perhaps, better still, directly beneath the “One years free parts and repairs”. It would be good forward thinking if that “one liner” had a link that would take the reader directly to the all embracing, detailed terms of the warranties, neatly set out in easily understood, unambiguous English. Readers familiar with 50Cycles website and electric cycle ownership may no longer be puzzled but new arrivals, researching electric bikes for the first time, would be ‘ambushed’ by the 6 month warranty if/when they came to make a claim if the battery failed after 6 months but within one year.
I had occasion to visit Loughborough and spoke of the “Guarantee”. Scott deliberately ‘corrected’ me saying: “It’s Warranty NOT Guarantee”. It just so happened that I had a print-out of a specification taken from their website 28th April 2007. I showed him precisely where it said “GUARANTEE”. He stared at it for about one minute (at least) and made absolutely no comment. It was very embarrassing. Now, how does one interpret that non-response? It was not corrected until much later when the arguments over the Chopper I had bought became much more ‘heated’. He invited me to ‘tell’ him where this “typo” (it’s what he called it) was on the website. In fact it was in three of the cycles’ specifications. Can he have forgotten so readily what had passed between us before?

Both the Directors are educated persons: Tim Snaith is, we have specifically been made aware, a University graduate. Surely it is not beyond their combined intellect, if their intentions are to trade honestly and transparently, to make these matters crystal clear.

I apologize if anyone finds this offensive or heavy handed but it has been going on long enough and little or no progress has been made to put it right unless, of course, it does not suit the Directors' modus operandi to do so.

flecc · Dec 27, 2007

How 50cycles run their website is their business until such time as it's delegated to someone else. If they take no notice of someones advice of an error, that's their choice and it's the end of the matter.

Informing members of this is one thing, doing it repeatedly and running a continuous hate campaign is quite another.

This whole thread started about the warranty relating to the Kalkhoff's battery, but after a response of mine on that, I was told it was about the eZee battery!!!

So was the thread just another thinly disguised attack? I'm justified in wondering.

If you all really want to destroy this forum, you're certainly going the right way about it.

If I don't like what I see on someone's website, I buy elsewhere, I don't try to appoint myself an official of that company and attempt to run it. At most I might advise them of the observed problem, then I move on, leaving it at that, knowing that how they run their business is nothing to do with me.
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Ian · Dec 27, 2007

The warranty details in the T&C's have been amended to include the Kalkhoff Panasonic battery.

Someone is taking notice

Thank you 50cycles.

flecc · Dec 27, 2007

Thanks for the link and update Ian, no problem with 50cycles response to this thread subject appearing, considering that was Boxing Day when they were closed.

And that's what makes me so angry about these constant attacks on 50cycles who are in truth one of the better companies in this field.

Other companies whose behaviours range from very questionable to negligent and even dishonest barely get more than a passing mention.
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