Warned off converting bikes by bike shops

[Dali]

Hi,
I have had awful trouble getting hold of a suitable bike during Covid with my wife's very narrow requirements and it just seems to get worse the more I look into it.

My wife found stock of the Dawes Mojave low step (but we have been here before and still have no bike - finally tried to buy a Woosh Big Bear or Santana 3 as we have been let down on bikes so many times, but they have stopped selling the former and the latter are delayed until mid Feb). But my wife has been warned a few times by bike shops that E kits are a bad idea as the frames just cannot take it. They are unimpressed with my wife's mention of torque arms and said they have seen it go wrong many times with stress fatigue setting in. Anybody else worry about this?


My idea is to pair the Woosh rear kit below when available (reluctantly decided against the Xiongda) with Dawes Mojave 700c 17" frame and 135mm rear dropout:

DWG22C-48V

3.9kgs 160mm cassette 60NM

I understand it will invalidate warranty on a new bike, but they still warn off doing it. The Mojave is aluminium frame but I worry about quality of components if going for the cheaper steel frame versions (Dawes Windermere).

The rear 350w Yose kit I fitted to my Merida 40D seems okay so far, but not ridden it a great deal yet and of course nowhere near the torque of the Woosh. It has a steel insert in the chain side rear dropout so have not fitted a torque arm (but I think I will on the other side very soon).

 

[MontyPAS]

Hi,
I have had awful trouble getting hold of a suitable bike during Covid with my wife's very narrow requirements and it just seems to get worse the more I look into it.

My wife found stock of the Dawes Mojave low step (but we have been here before and still have no bike - finally tried to buy a Woosh Big Bear or Santana 3 as we have been let down on bikes so many times, but they have stopped selling the former and the latter are delayed until mid Feb). But my wife has been warned a few times by bike shops that E kits are a bad idea as the frames just cannot take it. They are unimpressed with my wife's mention of torque arms and said they have seen it go wrong many times with stress fatigue setting in. Anybody else worry about this?


My idea is to pair the Woosh rear kit below when available (reluctantly decided against the Xiongda) with Dawes Mojave 700c 17" frame and 135mm rear dropout:

DWG22C-48V

3.9kgs 160mm cassette 60NM

I understand it will invalidate warranty on a new bike, but they still warn off doing it. The Mojave is aluminium frame but I worry about quality of components if going for the cheaper steel frame versions (Dawes Windermere).

The rear 350w Yose kit I fitted to my Merida 40D seems okay so far, but not ridden it a great deal yet and of course nowhere near the torque of the Woosh. It has a steel insert in the chain side rear dropout so have not fitted a torque arm (but I think I will on the other side very soon).

Most bike shops know "feck all" about ebikes or conversion kits, so I would take their warning with a pinch of salt. You only have to look at the number of contributors on this forum (and others) who have successfully converted with no safety issues!

 

[vfr400]

There are many myths and much crap floating round regarding conversions. Scaremongering is a long-establisghed persuasion tactic, and when people use it, you can be pretty sure that they're talking a load of ballcox.

I've been working with electric bikes, doing conversions an participating on many ebike forums for 10 years, and I've never seen or heard of anybody breaking a frame due to a conversion. That's despite people putting massive power through them. I myself put 5kw through an old Halfords Carrera Vulcan bike.

The only problems I know of is the motor spinning out of the drop-outs because of incorrect or bad installation..Aluminium drop-outs are not particularly strong, so if you fit a high torque motor, you need to reinforce them somehow.

 

[Dali]

Yes, that's what I thought and told my wife. Thanks both.

 

[Benjahmin]

This goes along with, "We don't sell e-bikes because there's no market for them", as I was told by a guy in Cardigan.
I have a Carrera crossfire with a torquey front hub, converted 12000miles ago, ridden on rough welsh roads. The frame hasn't broken yet.
I did take great care to fit a torque arm and I upgraded the front brake to hydraulic.
I think it's a statement made from ignorance coming from a presupposition that riding an e-bike isn't 'proper' cycling.

 

[sjpt]

This goes along with, "We don't sell e-bikes because there's no market for them", as I was told by a guy in Cardigan.

My favourite was a shop in Durham years ago when we asked for something (I forget what). Reply:
"Funny, a lot of people have been asking for that recently; but we don't stock it, there's no demand."

 

[Ocsid]

If conventional bikes, type to type, are structurally etc fine for conversion to e-bikes, it does beg the question why widely in the e-bike market, the offerings do seem to me to be heavier that just the motorisation components add?

I am not saying the conventional bikes are not suitable, it just seems the e-bike providers opt for somewhat more heavily structured cycle parts.

My wife's Kalkhoff Agattu's bike bits are massively heavier than my Felt conventional hybrid, both offered for similar roles.

Just asking.

 

[vfr400]

My wife's Kalkhoff Agattu's bike bits are massively heavier than my Felt conventional hybrid, both offered for similar roles.

Just asking.

You're not comparing like with like are you! Maybe compare an Orbia Gain F20 with your hybrid, or your wife's bike with a non-electric Agattu, then make some comments.

 

[Dali]

Gtec electric bike is only 16kg, I think. There are others.

I asked my wife, addressing her concerns at the time after coming off the phone with a local bike shop,
"Did they have stock of any of the models you were after?"
"No."
"Do they sell kits?"
"No."
But they wanted to sell you something they did have stock of - pre-built bikes for £1500 up?"
"Yes. I take your point but he wasn't like that, he was very nice."
"All salesmen are, before a sale.".

I am glad to get confirmation here and she feels much better now reading this thread.

 

[PP100]

I suspect the negativity from some bike shops is lack of confidence in knowledge about E bikes generally. They've been plying their trade for decades with basically century old manually powered mechanics but this is still an evolving technology - and they haven't kept up - so it's out of their comfort zone - and they don't want to commit to servicing the electrical aspect- but dont want to admit that so the dubious excuses get delivered instead.

 

[vfr400]

I suspect the negativity from some bike shops is lack of confidence in knowledge about E bikes generally. They've been plying their trade for decades with basically century old manually powered mechanics but this is still an evolving technology - and they haven't kept up - so it's out of their comfort zone - and they don't want to commit to servicing the electrical aspect- but dont want to admit that so the dubious excuses get delivered instead.

That's very true. I've been working with electric bikes for 10 years now. During that time, I have visited many electric bike shops and mixed with many people in the trade. Overall, I'd say that the level of knowledge regarding anything to do with the electrics is dreadful. Also, knowledge about trends and developments in the industry is virtually non-existent. Most of them have never even heard of the Pedelecs forum.

There are some ebike shops that have enthusiastic staff with good knowledge and skills. It's not all doom and gloom. Things are improving, but it's always going to be difficult for punters that know nothing to know whether the shop salesmen are knowledgeable and honest or not, though the honesty bit is hard to find, regardless.

 

[Ocsid]

In respect to workshops as opposed to sales, its probably just mirroring the franchised domestic vehicle trade?
The electronics and software in main line products, is becoming so specialised that involvement is only at plug in diagnostic level. The need to know the nuances of the electrical pieces is questionable as the makers don't design for third party delving, nor retail the internal bits, to do much anyway.
The local bike workshop having the expertise to cope with the "bike" components, and the diagnostic kit, is probably as good as we can hope for. After all, that is the way franchised automotive workshops have gone.

Maybe these workshops are not into this Pedelecs forum is because it by and large tends to focus on DIY users utilising retailed components? A world away from the market and product they are involved with, retailing only mainstream e-bikes. As said, these mainstream makers don't invite electrical component level repairing.

Not the way I would like it, but IMO the reality of the market, at least in the so called developed world.

 

[vfr400]

In respect to workshops as opposed to sales, its probably just mirroring the franchised domestic vehicle trade?
Maybe these workshops are not into this Pedelecs forum is because it by and large tends to focus on DIY users utilising retailed components? A world away from the market and product they are involved with, retailing only mainstream e-bikes. As said, these mainstream makers don't invite electrical component level repairing.

I was in more or less agreement up to that point. It's true that there are some DIY builders here, but that's not the majority. I would would say that a fair proportion of members start off with, "What bike should I buy" or "I have an ebike and it has a problem". Add to that, "I've just bought a new ebike and I think it's brilliant" and you've probably covered more than 75% of forum members. Many members are forced into doing DIY repairs because they can't get help from ebike shops.

 

[Woosh]

Many members are forced into doing DIY repairs because they can't get help from ebike shops.

the main reason they come seeking help here is because they buy their kits without support.
e-bike is relatively a niche market place compared to say computers or cars, you can't expect the local bike shop to know how to fix your bike.
If you just pop in one and say 'can you tell me what's wrong with my bike?' the poor guy may have to spend an hour on the phone to collect information then another hour to diagnose the fault. He can't do that for free. If he can't come up with the correct diagnosis, would you pay for his time?