Using other batteries on Panasonic lithium powered units

[flecc]

Seeking further gen I've just taken the Technium to the top of town with the Cyclone battery and have the slightest feeling that it is not pulling as well as the Gitane but the Gitane being only 3 speed is likely to have a lower top gear.
On the other hand this battery is 3 1/2 years old and has had a fair old howking, first on a hungry Currie motor, then the Cyclone on the recumbent where it received no mercy, too much fun. Charging at a steady, metered 5A always.

On toy planes I discharged NiMh 3000mAh at 30A for sport and other folk at 90+A for competition gliders so I wonder if our friend with the 28V NiMh has done a 15A discharge while testing the voltage.

Dave

It is a lower voltage Dave, so I'd expect it to fall a bit short of the Panasonic ones, plus that hard life will have detracted.

I doubt Shinji's rather low 5 Ah capacity battery is particularly suited anyway, regardless of any high discharge testing.

 

[andyh2]

Going a bit of topic...... Am I right in thinking that as I ride and the battery discharges I can expect the voltage to drop off a bit and along with it the power. If so and my battery is at 3 lights on test (60% of original capacity ie it's now in effect about a 6Ah battery?) then at the moment the best performance I can get from my battery is the same as a new one when 60% charged?

Of course what I want to hear is that if I get a new battery I can expect a slight power as well as a significant distance improvement

 

[flecc]

That doesn't necessarily follow on all systems Andy. The controller may well issue current at a level which a part discharged battery can supply just as well. My own experience with the Panasonic units is that the performance is fairly consistent until the late stages of discharge when loss of power is noticed. That tends to be about the onset of the slow flashing first low battery indication and becomes very marked at the fast flashing point.

Personal sensitivity to such changes does vary of course, so my experience may not exactly match yours.

 

[andyh2]

Ah well, at least I would definitely get the extra range from a new battery. Just need to choose whether or not to go for the extra range, and cost of course, of the 18ah one.

 

[lemmy]

My own experience with the Panasonic units is that the performance is fairly consistent until the late stages of discharge when loss of power is noticed. That tends to be about the onset of the slow flashing first low battery indication and becomes very marked at the fast flashing point.

That's exactly my experience. I notice it subjectively as the bike feeling heavier and less responsive.

 

[mikep]

Without trawling through all of the posts on the matter of Panasonic drive batteries, do I assume that it is not a feasible proposition to replace the battery cells due to either cost or availability of the "correct"cells?

Mike

 

[flecc]

I'd guess it's the availability of these pouch soft cells Mike. Here's a pic:

 

[mikep]

Thanks Flecc, thats just triggered my memory of a comment made in one of the dim and distant past posts that someone was having problems finding the pouch cells. Do I assume therefore that the pouch cells are specific to the particular battery chemistry used by Panasonic?

Regards

Mike

 

[flecc]

Not really, it just reflects that polymer electrolyte construction allows any shape of cells and a flexible pouch can be sufficient. In this case (sic) it may be that the pouch dimensions and the folded expansion edges are specific for their battery box design. It actually uses two banks in parallel of seven 5 Ah cells in series for their 10 Ah battery.

 

[mikep]

Which explains why the 15amp Panasonic battery size/contacts could not be compatible with the smaller ampage batteries. Again many thanks flecc.

So does the Kalkhoff / BMZ(?) battery use flexible pouches, or has no one taken one to pieces yet to invalidate their warranty!

 

[flecc]

Which explains why the 15amp Panasonic battery size/contacts could not be compatible with the smaller ampage batteries. Again many thanks flecc.

The 15 (now 16) Ah battery is fatter as well, needing different cowlings and wide set cranks on the unit.

So does the Kalkhoff / BMZ(?) battery use flexible pouches, or has no one taken one to pieces yet to invalidate their warranty!

I don't know, only that the their new own brand crank power unit uses 11 and 15 Ah batteries with cylindrical 18650 cells, 50 in all, in a 10 series, 5 parallel array. The cells use a green sleeve rather like the Sony ones, but I can only find Panasonic listing the pair of capacities that BMZ-Kalkhoff are using (2250 mAh and 3100 mAh), so they are probably made by Panasonic.

 

[oigoi]

I like to live life on the edge. I have been known to run whilst holding a pair of scissors, pull faces in changeable wind conditions and approach swans, knowing that they can break a man's leg with their wings. This battery stuff is tame by comparison.

Got to push the boundaries

Otherwise you're just living in a box

 

[NeilP]

That's good stuff. Well done all those that contributed. Now we have a new question: What happens if we connect a 36v battery?

It will run happily with the battery indicator showing the lowest setting only.
I ran it successfully round the block at 44 volts.

I was unsure of the correct voltage it should be used at, (before i knew about charge state pin), so kept ramping the voltage up to see if i could get a second lamp lit on the handle bar charge state indicator. I did not go beyond 44 because I did not believe it was running any higher..so that is what made me wonder about the middle wire..and how I cam to the forum for research.

There was no temp monitoring or steep hills involved, so i can't say how hot the motor or controller was getting at 44 volts.

 

[Erik]

I've put 2 Zippy compact 7S 5800mAh packs in my battery casing, bypassing the internal BMS.

I've ordered balance leads from HobbyKing, but they take ages to come.

When they finally arrive, I will connect the packs to the BMS, regaining full functionality of the battery and the handlebar meter.

I will also install standard balance plugs on the original Panasonic Lipo pack so I can charge it with my Junsi Icharger, which can balance and diagnose cells of all chemistries.

Fresh off the Pana charger, the cells are balanced within 0,01 Volt, but maybe one or more cells are fading under load.

 

[nippynoo]

I've put 2 Zippy compact 7S 5800mAh packs in my battery casing, bypassing the internal BMS.

I've ordered balance leads from HobbyKing, but they take ages to come.

When they finally arrive, I will connect the packs to the BMS, regaining full functionality of the battery and the handlebar meter.

Erik - Did this work? Is it the 26V 8Ah battery you used? (Its a long time ago I know)

Has anyone tried anything similar?

 

[motrax]

I have a similar problem. I have taken possession of several Japanese bikes. All early models by Panasonic, Bridgestone and Yamaha. When I connect a different model battery to the Panasonic I get the same symptoms as described before. The battery level light shows for a second then goes out. The third wire from the original battery is some sort of a signal wire. Has anyone figured out what it does, how it works and better still how to disable or bypass the function?

 

[Voltaire]

I have a similar problem. I have taken possession of several Japanese bikes. All early models by Panasonic, Bridgestone and Yamaha. When I connect a different model battery to the Panasonic I get the same symptoms as described before. The battery level light shows for a second then goes out. The third wire from the original battery is some sort of a signal wire. Has anyone figured out what it does, how it works and better still how to disable or bypass the function?

Hi, did you ever get sorted as I have also picked up a Panasonic bike with dead battery ( not avail here) and has same symptoms?
cheers John