Using illegal bikes

[Trevor Holloway]

OK, so there are legal bike kits for sale and those for off road use only.
Does anyone know the possible penalties for using an off road only bike on the road ?

I know the chances are fairly small for :
a) getting pulled over
b) the police actually knowing the difference
c) bothering to prosecute

However it would be useful to know what one might be letting themselves in for.

 

[Patrick]

You'd be riding an uninsured, unregistered etc motorcycle so the penalties could in theory be very stiff.

The way the law works is that if your bike is within the limits set then it is classed as an Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycle and treated as if it was a pedal cycle despite being a vehicle with a motor. If your bike fall outside the limits then it is classed as a Motor Vehicle with all the accompanying regulations.

 

[Trevor Holloway]

Patrick,
I thought that may have been the answer, big fines and prison is the worst case !
I think I will get a legal kit !!!
Thanks

 

[Psycosis]

I have often wondered if you are cycling too fast which would be at that point the only reason you would be pulled what they could actually do.
For example, i know plenty of people who can do 20mph cruising on their way to the office on a regular bike, and some can do faster bursts for long periods.

Say you get pulled over doing 30mph and you happen to have a motor, i would be interested how they would proceed.
They can't generally prove one way or the other what the speed/power of the motor is. If you aren't breaking any other laws that are obvious and not breaking the speed limit.
The interesting thing would be, why did they pull you over in the first place.

I don't see any regular cyclists doing fast speed being pulled over on my day to day travels.
Do we have any police on here?

I can ask my brother see what he says if we don't.

 

[Mussels]

Patrick,
I thought that may have been the answer, big fines and prison is the worst case !
I think I will get a legal kit !!!
Thanks

A slightly faster than legal motor is unlikely to attract any attention, I think most of the bigger suppliers/manufacturers make those tweaks available. I have seen people riding American imported kits and these are clearly too fast, a copper could easily confiscate it as an unregistered motorbike and have it tested later. I've never heard of that happening though.

If you want to know how it will affect your journey times then I've found unrestricting a Wisper make very little difference, it does feel nicer though.

 

[HarryB]

The only precidence we have is that the rozzers had a big clamp down on illegal electric rickshaws in London last year. This is different from several angles:

They were probably dobbed in by competitors
Many of them were very powerful and thus very illegal
They were commercial and carrying passangers without insurance etc

However I think the lesson is that if the numbers of illegal electric bikes gets quite high then the rozzers will take an interest but I don't think we are in anyway at that stage yet.

Another point is that if you have an accident with an illegal electric bike and kill a pedestrian, say they fall and break their head (as happened to someone last year), you will probably end up in prison. In London pedestrians stepping out in front of bicycles is a daily (hourly) occurance.

 

[tangent]

The only time I was ever pulled over by police was for going too fast on a cycle path across Clapham Common. I was doing about 15mph and they informed me that the legal limit on the Common was 5mph.

They then went on to explain that there had been a lot of complaints and confrontations involving cyclists and pedestrians on the Common and they would not be enforcing the 5mph limit, but were asking cyclist to keep their speed down and give way to pedestrians where pedestrian paths crossed the cycle path.

Being "Off Road" does not mean there are no restrictions!

 

[nab]

If you want to know how it will affect your journey times then I've found unrestricting a Wisper make very little difference

I wonder why do you think that is? Maybe it depends on the terrain you are cycling on?

 

[flecc]

The danger point will come when the DfT finishes it's revision of the current regulations and they are introduced, within a year now probably.

At that point the police will be notified of the new legal provisions so it's possible the awareness will be much higher than normal for a short while.
.

 

[Mussels]

I wonder why do you think that is? Maybe it depends on the terrain you are cycling on?

I ride from the M25 to the city centre so it's reasonably level with the odd steep hill, probably the frequent stop/starts have more influence making the top speed difference. With my new bike I can also ride on the flat above the unrestricted motor speed so the difference there is irrelevant as well.
There is a difference but other influences mean it is less than expected.

 

[nab]

With my new bike I can also ride on the flat above the unrestricted motor speed so the difference there is irrelevant as well.
There is a difference but other influences mean it is less than expected.

leaving the comparison between bikes aside for a moment and focusing just on the derestriction facility, i'm guessing that there's not much difference in average speed because the 3mph gap between 15mph and 18.5mph is pretty much at the sort of speed where you are coming up to a nice cruising speed anyway where you begin to generate your own momentum? so the derestriction mode may not get you there any much quicker exactly but it will get you there feeling a tad fresher.

maybe?

 

[eddieo]

with my old 905 I had the de restrict switch on handle bars, and you noticed a little more punch with it on. The new bike is Errr.... permanently de restricted so I don't notice anything

 

[nab]

The new bike is Errr.... permanently de restricted so I don't notice anything

tut tut tut....

 

[Psycosis]

Mussels

are you coming in from the south?

 

[eddieo]

Mussels

are you coming in from the south?

are you a Mason?

 

[Mussels]

Mussels

are you coming in from the south?

No, from the east on the level.

 

[Paulius55]

I am a Police Officer (and a cyclist!) and in my view you are very unlikely to get stopped for just cycling along, even at slightly elevated speeds, as long as you stay low profile. That is, stick to the other rules of the road. So don't jump red lights, filter dangerously, bang wing mirrors. However, should you draw attention to yourself then the bike is likely to be scrutinised and as Patrick says you are riding a motorcycle with no helmet, no registration, no MOT, no insurance and possibly without holding a motorcycle licence. In that case the bike would be seized, at your cost, and you could (and probably would) be reported for those offences which could seriously affect your pocket. Remember that any convictions for traffic offences will affect, for example, your car insurance when it comes for renewal. What you don't want to do is ride into the back of another vehicle, or otherwise cause third party damage or injury, as an uninsured rider could find themselves in very hot water. Anyway, as I said, very unlikely for most people. Keep safe!

 

[lemmy]

Thanks for a useful post, Paulius55.

My view is that the legislative decision to treat electric bikes with the same lack of restriction as ordinary bikes is that the legal versions are, essentially, ordinary bikes in terms of performance.

The assistance they give can improve the capability of an average or below average strength rider to that of a stronger rider. But they cannot improve a strong rider's performance since he can already outstrip the capability of the electric assistance.

When people start upping the power and speed of e-bikes, they are moving them out of being bicycles to being low powered motor-cycles and the law takes the view (correctly, in my view) that the game has been changed.

The danger when some of these people have accidents is that the newspapers will get on their high horses - "Electric Powered Thugs" - and all e-bikes will be re-classified to powered vehicles.

Unfortunately, that legislation would affect the responsible riders as well as the irresponsible. The law seems perfectly fair and fit for purpose as it stands. I'd like to see it stay that way.

 

[flecc]

The law seems perfectly fair and fit for purpose as it stands. I'd like to see it stay that way.

I agree, and fortunately it will stay as it is, simply because it is European law which binds all member nations. The attempts to get UK differences like increased power and/or independent throttles for pedelecs will fail, the EU will not permit them for a class of vehicles which by their nature cross borders.

The only way such differences can be permitted is by having a different class such as the higher speed one in Germany. This permits 40 kph (25 mph) power assist, and since May 2009, 500 watts as well. They are not e-bikes though, since they have to be registered, have number plates and third party insurance. Within EU rules we could have this in the UK as well, subject to our government agreeing to provide the necessary legislation, though the likelyhood of that happening is very slight.
.

 

[tagray]

I think the top assist speed may be over-rated in terms of journey time unless it is dangerously high. I had a Giant Twist with the smaller rear sprocket which sustained power support up to around 17 mph and now ride a Trek cytronex which runs out of oomph about 2 mph slower. However the latter is much faster as it is lighter and an an easier bike to cycle. More importantly however, is the fact that with a full derailleur set I can cycle downhill and on the flat much faster than on the Giant. The problem with crank driven electic bikes is that there is a fixed relationship between the motor speed and the cadence in top gear. Thus at the top legal speed the cadence has to be reasonable enough to be comfortable and there isn't any way of altering that relationship without instantly making the bike technically illegal. With a hub motor, you can select as high a gear as you like independently of the top speed of the motor driving the hub.

It was slightly irritating when using the Giant to power up hills past other cyclists only for them to pass me on the downhill as the only way I could match them was to pedal like many a demented MTB cyclist I see who seem to have forgotten how to use the front sprockets when back on normal roads! With the hub motor of the cytronex I always have a selection of gears to suit my cadence with the underpinning of the smooth delivery of power up to the legal limit. Presumably this is a similar feeling on all the other hub motor bikes.

What I would like to know is how all those with crank motors such as Kalkhoffs and the like manage on slight downhills or with the wind behind them when by adding a bit of effort they could manage 25 mph except that the cadence is unsustainable. Does everybody use a smaller rear sprocket (and thus make the bike illegal) or just resign themselves to the sort of stately cycling I eventually got used to on the Giant?

Trevor

(Trek Cytronex)