But was it this company who went to court to prove they were legal? It might of mentioned that on its website, if I can find it again.Member Synthman has one of the scooter styled e-bikes shown below, 250 watts but I think an independently acting throttle so not EU legal and also not conforming to the UK's 200 watt EAPC regulations:
Urgent Help re electric bike law.
- Thread starter fatts
- Start date
Well, Canada is the land of mounted policemen and just about the only country in the civilized world which won't allow someone done for DUI in their home country to even cross their borders for 5 years, including where it classified as a driving offence rather than a criminal one in their own country. Puts Dick Cheney in a tricky spot
!! I wouldn't be at all surprised if their little "oversight" wasn't a draconian loophole for their criminal code created by design.There's a review of the City Mantis at: City Mantis Electric Scooter : Product Review which includes this photo:-
Those are not pedals, they're clearly foot rests. I can't see any way this qualifies as a bicycle.
Those are not pedals, they're clearly foot rests. I can't see any way this qualifies as a bicycle.
It cannot be proved to be legal in the UK if it has an independently acting full range throttle and a 250 watt motor. Pedelec only with 250 watts accords to EU law, or 200 watts with an independent throttle accords to the UK law.
If the DfT allows independent throttles in 2016 when they complete their revision of the law, this kind of bike will then become legal in the UK, but still not in mainland Europe.
As some will recall, I got involved in trying to help a chap with a scooter who similarly was stopped by the police. In his case the scooter wasn't impounded and he wasn't charged, just advised to get it registered (something I tried to help with by taking the thing for an MSVA test, which it failed).
This is a photo of a very similar scooter to the one I know for sure is not only illegal, but cannot easily be made legal to use here:
We didn't attempt to argue that it could ever be classified as an electric bike, as the (very helpful) traffic officer demonstrated quite clearly that it was near-impossible to use the pedals as the primary means of propelling the thing, and I had to agree with him. Apart from the difficulty imposed by having the pedals spaced so far apart as to make pedalling very awkward, there was also the added problem that the pedals seemed to be geared at around a 1:1 ratio with the small rear wheel, making the cadence so high as to make pedalling faster than a walking pace impossible.
The EU EPAC definition includes this: "cycle, equipped with pedals and an auxiliary electric motor, which cannot be propelled exclusively by means of this auxiliary electric motor" and the UK EAPC definition includes this: "be fitted with pedals by means of which it is capable of being propelled" and that the UK definition has been clarified by case law (Winter Vs DPP) such that pedals not only have to be capable of propelling the vehicle, but that such pedal propulsion has to be a viable means of propelling it in the absence of electric motor power. Anyone who tries to pedal a scooter such as the one in that image above will quickly realise that the pedals are purely for cosmetic purposes!
This is a photo of a very similar scooter to the one I know for sure is not only illegal, but cannot easily be made legal to use here:
We didn't attempt to argue that it could ever be classified as an electric bike, as the (very helpful) traffic officer demonstrated quite clearly that it was near-impossible to use the pedals as the primary means of propelling the thing, and I had to agree with him. Apart from the difficulty imposed by having the pedals spaced so far apart as to make pedalling very awkward, there was also the added problem that the pedals seemed to be geared at around a 1:1 ratio with the small rear wheel, making the cadence so high as to make pedalling faster than a walking pace impossible.
The EU EPAC definition includes this: "cycle, equipped with pedals and an auxiliary electric motor, which cannot be propelled exclusively by means of this auxiliary electric motor" and the UK EAPC definition includes this: "be fitted with pedals by means of which it is capable of being propelled" and that the UK definition has been clarified by case law (Winter Vs DPP) such that pedals not only have to be capable of propelling the vehicle, but that such pedal propulsion has to be a viable means of propelling it in the absence of electric motor power. Anyone who tries to pedal a scooter such as the one in that image above will quickly realise that the pedals are purely for cosmetic purposes!
I did think of importing some machines like Synthman's scooter but realised very quickly that legality is one thing,police perception is another.
First of all understand that these machines are very slow with only 250 watts power,they really need minimum 500 watts to be useable.
That aside I took a photo of the machine into my local police station and without any details of specification I showed a photo of a mini moped type machine-the policeman said it was a motorbike and needed tax,insurance,helmet,No plate.....I then showed him a Kudos Tourer photo his response was immediate that was an electric bicycle and didn't need tax,insurance,helmet,No plate.
The point I am making here is that it was possible to make both machines in specification identical,the Tourer does not have a throttle but the police didn't know that.
I decided that whilst it was possible to make the mini moped machine into what could be considered bicycle legal it just wasn't worth all the hassle that would be attracted to a machine that in the perception of the police was a moped,whereas the bicycle looking machine would attract no hassle.
Might not be a legal point but is certainly a practical one.
Dave
Kudoscycles
First of all understand that these machines are very slow with only 250 watts power,they really need minimum 500 watts to be useable.
That aside I took a photo of the machine into my local police station and without any details of specification I showed a photo of a mini moped type machine-the policeman said it was a motorbike and needed tax,insurance,helmet,No plate.....I then showed him a Kudos Tourer photo his response was immediate that was an electric bicycle and didn't need tax,insurance,helmet,No plate.
The point I am making here is that it was possible to make both machines in specification identical,the Tourer does not have a throttle but the police didn't know that.
I decided that whilst it was possible to make the mini moped machine into what could be considered bicycle legal it just wasn't worth all the hassle that would be attracted to a machine that in the perception of the police was a moped,whereas the bicycle looking machine would attract no hassle.
Might not be a legal point but is certainly a practical one.
Dave
Kudoscycles
You're spot on, perception is very much more important than absolute legality, I'm sure.
For the same reason I've made all my DIY ebike builds as discreet as possible, such that it's hard to tell at a quick glance that they are even electric bikes.
As the old saying goes, "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck", at least in the eyes of a passing police officer.
For the same reason I've made all my DIY ebike builds as discreet as possible, such that it's hard to tell at a quick glance that they are even electric bikes.
As the old saying goes, "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck", at least in the eyes of a passing police officer.
The motor power is listed as 200w. Electric Bikes / Bicycles - Steel Frame - Electric Bikes 18 inch wheel - Ninja LPB With Lithium Battery Electric Scooter Road Legal
It has no rating plate though. I haven't ridden any other electric bike to compare it to, but when I see others on the road, only the A2B Metro is quicker.
The police have plenty of opportunity to stop me. There's always one behind me trying to overtake when I go near the police stations, and I see them on foot when I ride down paths but they have never questioned the legality of it. I have been stopped though for allegedly going through a red light. But the legality issue is one of the reasons I'd never have another one, as well as the lack of power.
That's the way I see it, too. Those add-on kiddy seats and cargo bikes with more than one seat would be quite legal as long as they're not just thrown together with chewing gum and tie-wraps.
That picture above posted by muckymits is exactly the model I was going to buy 3 years ago..they used to be all over eBay and there were importers with fancy sites selling them for around £500. I'm so glad I didn't buy one now and listened to the advice I originally came here for which advised me about the ambiguity with the law and police..plus the obvious handicaps these scooter bikes bring about not being able to go on pavements or bicycle lanes.
The pedals as Jeremy said are merely an attempt to make this look like it complies with the law but as he said, it doesn't take a test or genius to see pedalling one of these machines is next to impossible any distance. That's another reason not to buy one, if the battery goes you're gonna need roadside assistance.
The only place I imagine something like this would ever be useful is either China (and according to other posts they're moving to ban them from roads too soon), or some vast airport or other private lands, to move documents and packages around etc
Unless of course, you went to the cost and trouble of getting it registered as an electrical motor vehicle with number plates on it, MOT etc.. I think the procedure and cost of that has been covered already in other posts.. if you're gonna do that, may as well just buy a proper entry-level electric moped which comes registered? You can get them for around a grand new and much less second hand. You would have to sit the CBT of course, but you would be able to go faster.. I think the limit is 30mph or something? Not sure.
The pedals as Jeremy said are merely an attempt to make this look like it complies with the law but as he said, it doesn't take a test or genius to see pedalling one of these machines is next to impossible any distance. That's another reason not to buy one, if the battery goes you're gonna need roadside assistance.
The only place I imagine something like this would ever be useful is either China (and according to other posts they're moving to ban them from roads too soon), or some vast airport or other private lands, to move documents and packages around etc
Unless of course, you went to the cost and trouble of getting it registered as an electrical motor vehicle with number plates on it, MOT etc.. I think the procedure and cost of that has been covered already in other posts.. if you're gonna do that, may as well just buy a proper entry-level electric moped which comes registered? You can get them for around a grand new and much less second hand. You would have to sit the CBT of course, but you would be able to go faster.. I think the limit is 30mph or something? Not sure.
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The pedals on that one are much closer together than on other similar bikes, but the fixed gear is useless. On smooth level ground it can be pedalled quite well, but you won't get anywhere fast. The biggest issues I've had with those pedals are they bash my ankles, and they scrape the ground when leaning through tight turns. I always ride in the cycle lane unless it is on a pavement. Nobody has ever challenged me.
The limit of the CBT is 125cc, some bikes can exceed the speed limit.
The limit of the CBT is 125cc, some bikes can exceed the speed limit.
No offence taken I hope Synthman from my posts, I forgot you own one of these e-bikes. It's interesting the police haven't stopped you.. I don't know your age, but maybe people who are older and look like responsible cyclists are less likely to be stopped.The pedals on that one are much closer together than on other similar bikes, but the fixed gear is useless. On smooth level ground it can be pedalled quite well, but you won't get anywhere fast. The biggest issues I've had with those pedals are they bash my ankles, and they scrape the ground when leaning through tight turns. I always ride in the cycle lane unless it is on a pavement. Nobody has ever challenged me.
The limit of the CBT is 125cc, some bikes can exceed the speed limit.
The other day I was coming back from the sorting office late one evening via the quiet bus route lane as I always do.. and who should I see pull onto the lane from a side path, but some youth on one of those "pocket bikes" the type which have a tiny petrol engine and make a terrible whining noise.. unregistered and totally illegal of course to be on a normal road, let alone a buses-only lane. He had the shock of his life when he saw me, as I look very like much a copper I've been told with my hi-vis jacket, a wide black clip belt (to keep the draft out, its two sizes too big!) and my camera mounted on my shoulder.. the look on his face was priceless!
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No offence taken at all!
Police stopped me twice, one for the red light incident (I went through it on amber but they claimed red) and once I had a passenger with no helmet, but they left us alone as soon as they realised it was electric. I'm 27 but I've been riding it since I was 24. Some of the police I see when riding must recognise me from the times they arrested me years ago! Another can of worms..JHMO....I would........reimburse the buyer, in case they seek 'where there's blame there's a claim litigious sharp suit' that would give you no end of grief....
But it wouldn't cause no end of grief.
Any legal dept will laugh out of the office for even suggesting the seller is at fault.
Right had time to read all now.
The scooter is 250w with pedals plate stating as such and 25 kph has full range of throttle speed no pedal assist so it would appear I am wrong as I told them it was fully legal.
It appears the E.U. and U.K. laws ave been cherry picked and they are in the right to insist on there money back as I would hope for redress if someone did the same to me.
Many thanks again
Fatts
The scooter is 250w with pedals plate stating as such and 25 kph has full range of throttle speed no pedal assist so it would appear I am wrong as I told them it was fully legal.
It appears the E.U. and U.K. laws ave been cherry picked and they are in the right to insist on there money back as I would hope for redress if someone did the same to me.
Many thanks again
Fatts
Ah. That does change things a bit..they could technically sue you.. but if it was a private sale, you could plead ignorance and they would have to demonstrate that you most likely knew it was not legal and wilfully misled them into buying into, which could be difficult.. I think in a private sale, it's a case of "buyer beware" and it's down to whoever plans to ride it on a road to check the law properly. Technically you're right anyway, it's not illegal to sell the bike or own it, only to use it on roads eh. They would probably argue you knew what they meant or didn't volunteer the full facts.
If it was a commercial sale/business sale, they would have solid grounds for a refund or to sue you and there's no defence in that situation, because the law is on the consumer side and the emphasis is on the seller to take on the burden legality, i.e. selling an item "fit for use" and advertising clearly.
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Absolutely right! No laws have been broken, the contract under which the ebike was purchased seems to have been valid (there was clearly an offer, and acceptance of that offer and the exchange of a consideration), and, as with any other purchase caveat emptor applies.
The purchaser is responsible for determining whether or not what they are buying fits the purpose they have in mind for it. If they didn't check whether it could be legally ridden on the road as a bicycle before they purchased it, then they have only themselves to blame. They cannot, in law, take action against the seller, unless the ebike in question was new and was sold with a misleading description, which doesn't seem to be the case here. For second hand goods the seller is under no obligation to give an accurate description of the legality of the goods being sold, and even if he/she does then it doesn't mean much, as they probably would not be considered, in law, to be competent to give such an opinion.
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I think if there was intent though to mislead someone, there would still be grounds to sue someone, even in a private sale. That would be difficult to prove though I imagine unless the seller admits it in court and the court is satisfied the seller knew what he was saying wasn't true. If that couple asked outright "is this legal to ride on roads" and that owner knew it wasn't or had doubts and told them it was, that's dishonest and the court could award damages for the couples legal costs. Granted, the couple still should have checked from a reliable source or with the police... but the court take a dim view of people who mislead and trick people into parting with their cash. If they're convinced it was wilful deception, they will most likely hear the case. I'm not suggesting here for one second that fatts was being deceitful or tricked the couple.. I'm just giving a hypothetical example of how a private civil action could work in such a situation. Even in a private sale, there's a contract or agreement between two parties, and the couple may have entered into it in good faith expecting something agreed and getting something else.
In a business sale, the seller would have a legal responsibility to state categorically its not road legal or that the buyer should check the law before riding it on roads. If they didn't, then various consumer protection laws come into play, most likely the Sale of Goods Act. Most likely the couple would be entitled to a full refund at the very least as the item wasn't advertised correctly and is not fit for purpose.
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