Upgrading a Carrera Vengeance E spec - what options do I have?

lukemca

Just Joined
Mar 22, 2021
3
0
22
Dublin
First post, hi all.​
With no prior knowledge of electric bikes before purchase, I got a very nice price on my 2020 model Carrera Vengeance E-spec which I’ve owned for 2 months. I’ve put about 700km onto it without any problems other than that I’d like to upgrade it to be either faster or longer range or both if possible. I’ve since found out the suntour HESC kit cannot be de restricted, so I’ve been looking at:
A: getting a 350w yose power kit and swapping out all the factory HESC gear, but is it possible to keep my existing battery? Has anyone done this conversion? I can’t seem to find any information about the battery on my bike, and whether I could use it in conjunction with a yose power kit, or if not compatible what would my option be?
Or
B: if a conversion is not possible instead getting a bigger battery for longer range, mine is a STL 36v 8.7ah/313.2wh and I barely get 40km out of it as I’m always in HI setting. I’ve looked for batteries before, but I really have no idea what to search for, and nothing seems to fit the connectors on my bike.

What are my options here? I have basic knowledge of soldering and wiring, so anything that direction wouldn’t be a problem, if needed. Any advice/input would be greatly appreciated.
thank you for reading
Luke
 

Amoto65

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 2, 2017
807
502
61
Cheshire
My advice would be sell it and buy a bike and separate kit and build your own, The Suntour system is a pain in the neck.
 

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
9,822
3,993
Basildon
It depends which version Vengeance you have . Everything below applies to the one with the torque sensor and Suntour HESC system and to the Crossfire and Vulcan and any other bike (Raleigh) that also has that system. You can do whatever you want with the version that has a normal magnet disc pedal sensor.

A. AFAIK, a Yose motor won't fit because the HESC motor has an unusual arrangement for resisting the torque. If You're considering going that route, take your motor out and have a good look at the dropouts to see how a standard motor would fit. Apart from that, there's no reason to fit a Yose motor, which is worse than the one you've already got. The HESC motor is the highlight of the the HESC system. It has a high reduction system so can give a lot of power and torque.
B. You can't change the battery and keep the rest of the electrical system because the battery uses handshaking comms with the controller.

If you want more range, you have to change all the electrical system except the motor, which would cost close to £400. For that, you only need to cut and solder the 9 motor wires. If you want more speed or power, you can get a replacement control system for about £80. For that you'd need to do some wiring and soldering.

Here's what I wrote to somebody else that wanted more range and maybe other things.

Basically, you have to chuck all the electrical items (torque sensor, battery, controller and LCD) and replace them with the battery of your choice, a KT sinewave controller and LCD, and a conventional pedal sesor. A throttle is a worthwhile optional addition. You have to cut the motor wires at the controller end and solder them to the new one, or cut the motor connector off and solder on the normal 9 pin type. What you do depends on which controller you buy.

That still leaves some decisions:
1. 48v or 36v? If you're happy with the power of your present system, choose 36v. The new system can be unrestricted, which will give about 20 mph. 48v will allow 30% more speed, so cruising in the low 20s becomes a possibility, but you use considerably more battery at those speeds. 48V also gives 30% more torque for the same current. 36v will be slightly more efficient than 48v regarding Wh used per mile.

2. How much current? If you're happy with the present speed or a few more MPH with an unrestricted system, stick with 36v, but if you want more climbing power, you can go up to 22A. I'm not sure what the standard current is, but I'd guess 15A or 17A. At 48v, you need less current. 36v 20A gives identical torque to 48v 15A. At 48v, I wouldn't go higher than 17A.

3. The type of controller? You can get controllers that are integrated into the battery carrier or sperate ones in an aluminium box. Obviously, for a box type, you have to install it somewhere. That would normally be in a toolbag or a propietary controller box fixed to the seat tube. Only the 15A ones fit in the box. If you were to keep your existing battery, the integrated15A controller just fits in the compartment in your battery reciever, but you want a different battery, so all options are open. Some versions of the controllers are 36v and 48v compatible, so it gives options for the future. Some controllers, especially the integrated ones, have what they call the waterproof connectors, which means moulded. They're neater, but fault-finding is much more difficult. That's not a propblem if you don't have any faults. Also, the moulded connectors have fixed length cables attached, which are normally too long, so you have to lose the cable somewhere, which can make it not very neat.

BMSBattery sell batteries, where you can choose to have them supplied with an integrated controller and the rest of the kit, like this example. I prefer this shape because it's easiest to fit. the Hailong shape is fine, but there are three variants, and the original (most common) one has the fixings too far up, so you have to add neww rivnuts to your frame or use some sort of adapter:
bmsbattery.com

36V12.5Ah/14.5Ah/17.5Ah Bottle-09 E-Bike Battery & Charger Color Black Cells / Capacity SAMSUNG 3.5AH / 17.5AH Inner Controller With
New design bottle-09 e-bike battery pack 36V10Ah included a S180 charger.
bmsbattery.com
bmsbattery.com

You can buy most of the KT controller variants at Topbikekit. That would probably be the best place to buy if you're getting the battery from somewhere else, or if you're going to buy a battery from them. Don't buy the cheapest LCD and definitely not an LED display because they don't all give access to all the settings.
ebike controller,electric bike controller,Sine Wave Controller,24v,36v,48v controller
www.topbikekit.com

When you buy from China, they're happy to cover faulty controllers and small stuff, but batteries are a problem for both sides. In 10 years of buying around £25,000 worth of ebike stuff from China, I had one problem, where they sent me the wrong speed motor, so I'm happy to recommend it, but if you need absolute assurance, it would be better to buy the battery from a reputable UK supplier, like Eclipse Bikes.

Finally, the bike has a standard frame, so you can save some weight afterwards by changing the torque sensor crankset for a conventional one and or the bottom bracket. You would then have the option of a double chainring and/or fitting a nice hollowtech crankset.
 
Last edited:

lukemca

Just Joined
Mar 22, 2021
3
0
22
Dublin
hi vfr400 and thank you for the great reply.
I still have a few more questions.
so I’m curious about the solution you mentioned for £80, the replacement control system. Would that be a simple £80 spend and it just wires up to my existing kit and I get exactly what I want in terms of speed?

I’m not certain if the battery you linked would fit my bike. Looks like the cradle is for the bottle cage mounts on a standard bicycle frame, of which mine has none, but do correct me if I am

It appears that this battery is just a higher spec version of the one I’ve got, 12ah instead of my 8.7ah. I’d definitely go for one of these, although it appears these are out of stock ywhere.

I have also found a guy local to myself who specialises in recelling electric bike batteries. Had a chat to him there and he said he could recell my battery to 13,600mAh or 489.6wh, for around €150. Would this be a sensible thing to get done, and would this benefit in terms of range or speed? Would I need to modify any of my hardware if I just got the battery recelled and nothing else?

apologies if anything I said is incorrect - I’m not the most knowledgeable in this field

thanks again
Luke
 

lukemca

Just Joined
Mar 22, 2021
3
0
22
Dublin
You haven't said which version you have.
Sorry - you were talking about the one I have I think. It’s a carrera vengeance e-spec 2020 - suntour HESC 250w, not the earlier bafang model with no speedo. LED display type like this

And there’s no magnet, I’m pretty sure it’s the in-built torque sensor.
 

bigarm

Just Joined
Jun 29, 2022
2
1
It depends which version Vengeance you have . Everything below applies to the one with the torque sensor and Suntour HESC system and to the Crossfire and Vulcan and any other bike (Raleigh) that also has that system. You can do whatever you want with the version that has a normal magnet disc pedal sensor.

A. AFAIK, a Yose motor won't fit because the HESC motor has an unusual arrangement for resisting the torque. If You're considering going that route, take your motor out and have a good look at the dropouts to see how a standard motor would fit. Apart from that, there's no reason to fit a Yose motor, which is worse than the one you've already got. The HESC motor is the highlight of the the HESC system. It has a high reduction system so can give a lot of power and torque.
B. You can't change the battery and keep the rest of the electrical system because the battery uses handshaking comms with the controller.

If you want more range, you have to change all the electrical system except the motor, which would cost close to £400. For that, you only need to cut and solder the 9 motor wires. If you want more speed or power, you can get a replacement control system for about £80. For that you'd need to do some wiring and soldering.

Here's what I wrote to somebody else that wanted more range and maybe other things.

Basically, you have to chuck all the electrical items (torque sensor, battery, controller and LCD) and replace them with the battery of your choice, a KT sinewave controller and LCD, and a conventional pedal sesor. A throttle is a worthwhile optional addition. You have to cut the motor wires at the controller end and solder them to the new one, or cut the motor connector off and solder on the normal 9 pin type. What you do depends on which controller you buy.

That still leaves some decisions:
1. 48v or 36v? If you're happy with the power of your present system, choose 36v. The new system can be unrestricted, which will give about 20 mph. 48v will allow 30% more speed, so cruising in the low 20s becomes a possibility, but you use considerably more battery at those speeds. 48V also gives 30% more torque for the same current. 36v will be slightly more efficient than 48v regarding Wh used per mile.

2. How much current? If you're happy with the present speed or a few more MPH with an unrestricted system, stick with 36v, but if you want more climbing power, you can go up to 22A. I'm not sure what the standard current is, but I'd guess 15A or 17A. At 48v, you need less current. 36v 20A gives identical torque to 48v 15A. At 48v, I wouldn't go higher than 17A.

3. The type of controller? You can get controllers that are integrated into the battery carrier or sperate ones in an aluminium box. Obviously, for a box type, you have to install it somewhere. That would normally be in a toolbag or a propietary controller box fixed to the seat tube. Only the 15A ones fit in the box. If you were to keep your existing battery, the integrated15A controller just fits in the compartment in your battery reciever, but you want a different battery, so all options are open. Some versions of the controllers are 36v and 48v compatible, so it gives options for the future. Some controllers, especially the integrated ones, have what they call the waterproof connectors, which means moulded. They're neater, but fault-finding is much more difficult. That's not a propblem if you don't have any faults. Also, the moulded connectors have fixed length cables attached, which are normally too long, so you have to lose the cable somewhere, which can make it not very neat.

BMSBattery sell batteries, where you can choose to have them supplied with an integrated controller and the rest of the kit, like this example. I prefer this shape because it's easiest to fit. the Hailong shape is fine, but there are three variants, and the original (most common) one has the fixings too far up, so you have to add neww rivnuts to your frame or use some sort of adapter:
bmsbattery.com

36V12.5Ah/14.5Ah/17.5Ah Bottle-09 E-Bike Battery & Charger Color Black Cells / Capacity SAMSUNG 3.5AH / 17.5AH Inner Controller With
New design bottle-09 e-bike battery pack 36V10Ah included a S180 charger.
bmsbattery.com
bmsbattery.com

You can buy most of the KT controller variants at Topbikekit. That would probably be the best place to buy if you're getting the battery from somewhere else, or if you're going to buy a battery from them. Don't buy the cheapest LCD and definitely not an LED display because they don't all give access to all the settings.
ebike controller,electric bike controller,Sine Wave Controller,24v,36v,48v controller
www.topbikekit.com

When you buy from China, they're happy to cover faulty controllers and small stuff, but batteries are a problem for both sides. In 10 years of buying around £25,000 worth of ebike stuff from China, I had one problem, where they sent me the wrong speed motor, so I'm happy to recommend it, but if you need absolute assurance, it would be better to buy the battery from a reputable UK supplier, like Eclipse Bikes.

Finally, the bike has a standard frame, so you can save some weight afterwards by changing the torque sensor crankset for a conventional one and or the bottom bracket. You would then have the option of a double chainring and/or fitting a nice hollowtech crankset.
Hi, I have the 2020 Oled display vengeance-e. I'm interested in getting 36V12.5Ah/14.5Ah/17.5Ah Bottle-09 E-Bike Battery & Charger Color Black Cells / Capacity SAMSUNG 3.5AH / 17.5AH Inner Controller can the HSEC Motor plug just plug straight in or do you have to splice the wires?
thanks
 

JollyRoger

Finding my (electric) wheels
Mar 17, 2023
12
2
Believe it or not, these wheels actually work with a £25 amazon controller, a bit more expensive with the display......I've done mine due to speed sensor being bust on the inside of the hub.....not sure about the derestricting but youtube will be the one for that-my point is that these things work fine with other controllers...there's no PAS just throttle, unless you want the dearer version-the display and extras are the expensive part imo.

Mine's still within limits-but there are ways.....
 

JollyRoger

Finding my (electric) wheels
Mar 17, 2023
12
2
I'm using a braintree s866, you can get it with or without display-they seem to be the go-to. . . . .all that's used on mine is the 3 phase lines and hall sensors-no torque sensor, no speed sensor wire or anything like that-just the throttle, it's childs play.......I've got a wheel mounted speedo instead of a display.......a fiver !

it'll fit in the original ecu hole as well with a bit of jiggling;)
 

saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
6,814
3,152
Telford
I'm using a braintree s866, you can get it with or without display-they seem to be the go-to. . . . .all that's used on mine is the 3 phase lines and hall sensors-no torque sensor, no speed sensor wire or anything like that-just the throttle, it's childs play.......I've got a wheel mounted speedo instead of a display.......a fiver !

it'll fit in the original ecu hole as well with a bit of jiggling;)
Brainpower, not Braintree! The Brainpower is cheap. It works if that's all you want, but its power control algorithms are pretty poor. A KT controller gives a much better ride, but it's more expensive. With the KT, you have to find the correct motor connection sequence, not colour to colour, and you have to go through all the settings in the menu, while as Brainpower has more chance of plug-and-play.
 
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JollyRoger

Finding my (electric) wheels
Mar 17, 2023
12
2
yeah, sorry. . . .hold my hands up to that one........the bike I bought was a write-off, rats nest wiring, hacked up controller, and a wrecked motor.......given the price of a new wheel I had to assess all options. . . .the frame and battery alone cost me £320.....I've done the whole halfords thing with torque sensors etc., got a stack of them and they're all useless because the wheel's knackered effectively.......although it's fine:rolleyes:

Am a good £550 into this heap of a bike so it's not as if I've scrimped-not when a working second hand one's 450-500 max.

Am just throwing my experience out there-I tried everywhere to get help with this thing, I needed a working bike, same as with the motor stopper-I had to improvise.

And yeah, the wiring's "challenging":D, it's all part of the learning curve I reckon.
 

val73

Just Joined
Jul 9, 2023
2
0
Good afternoon, i have carrera vengeance e with the 250 w engine, without display, i wonder if i could upgrade it to 1x11 or 1x12, it.s kind of difficult up the hill. If yes, what would be your suggestions? Thank you