Young trouble makers eh?Hang about- who mentioned 70's. I am 68 and Anne is 65.
(At 82 I can say that!)
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Update on N.I. e-bike regs.
- Thread starter TedG
- Start date
(At 82 I can say that!)
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A High Court judge wouldn't rule any of those, he would merely rule that it was an illegal motor vehicle.
There are two levels of law that have to be passed, one to be a legal motor vehicle or exempt from motor vehicle law, the other the legality of use.
To be a legal motor vehicle it has to accord to type approval law and be certified as such, or be in one of the type approval exemptions.
For one to be legal to use, it first has to accord to the above and then has to have a separate specific law permitting use.
To illustrate:
Within the Two and Three Wheeled Type Approval law 168/2013, there's a set of exemptions from being a motor vehicle:
Exemption (i) is for self balancing vehicles like Segways, but they are still illegal for use in the UK since there is no parallel law permitting their use.
Exemption (h) is for pedelecs meeting the requirements for such machines (250 w, 15.5 mph etc), but they can be used in most of the UK since the EAPC regulation specifically permits their use.
A motorised scooter or skateboard is always illegal, since it is powered while not being exempt from being a motor vehicle, not being approved as a motor vehicle while being one, and not having a law permitting use. A triple gotcha.
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OK Guys, this is where I am about to be evicted from the forum.
We have had an in depth conversation and with our clocks ticking ever louder and Stormont moving ever closer into oblivion we have decided that radical action is needed.
This very morning I went to a well established cycle store in Belfast (an excellent and well equipped store in fact) and priced........................................Two Brompton folders.
Yes I can hear the cries of horror but with our reluctance to break the law on e-bikes or to leave ourselves open to personal claims despite a long and safe life on the roads we really like the idea of a Brompton or two.
You will say why not just a conventional bicycle on a roof rack and I will say that due to our age and health issues we can't ride a conventional bicycle hence the original idea of the e-bikes which we have subsequently "lost".
We are simply not serious cyclists anymore, it happens to all sooner or later.
Life has come a long way from a Fireblade and a Ducati 888 but I am too tired for either of those as well so those great days are long gone.
I understand that our innocent and enjoyable e-bike 30 miles a day will be gone (unless the law is changed) but until that we like the idea of folders packed into the back of the Golf and off to areas where we can ride safely - towpaths and level cycle paths and sea front promenades.
Tommie will know about Newcastle, Carrick, Bangor and Portrush.
For the foreseeable future hills are out for us but a 5 mile cycle on level ground is better than sitting here waiting on political buffoons to decide what we do with the relatively few minutes we have left in this life.
I haven’t had the support I expected from the Green Party so it will be just another car on the roads to get us to where we would normally have cycled. So be it.
I would expect that most of you will be familiar with Bromptons but as an ex-engineer I can appreciate good workmanship and these are excellent.
Built in shop from stock to our own specification with a very clever design and the size and convenience of an 11kg suitcase.
We obviously have to keep the e-bikes until we can use them again or that the dealer will be allowed to return them to the manufacturer as unusable and unsaleable (sp) in this backwater section of the UK.
In any case we have the room to store two e-bikes and two folders and like so many of you with the choice of a garage full of bikes at least we will always have the ability to be out and about again - legally.
This is of course being dependant on Flecc or others who will know of a law restricting the use of a Brompton by a pensioner with a bad attitude.
We have had an in depth conversation and with our clocks ticking ever louder and Stormont moving ever closer into oblivion we have decided that radical action is needed.
This very morning I went to a well established cycle store in Belfast (an excellent and well equipped store in fact) and priced........................................Two Brompton folders.
Yes I can hear the cries of horror but with our reluctance to break the law on e-bikes or to leave ourselves open to personal claims despite a long and safe life on the roads we really like the idea of a Brompton or two.
You will say why not just a conventional bicycle on a roof rack and I will say that due to our age and health issues we can't ride a conventional bicycle hence the original idea of the e-bikes which we have subsequently "lost".
We are simply not serious cyclists anymore, it happens to all sooner or later.
Life has come a long way from a Fireblade and a Ducati 888 but I am too tired for either of those as well so those great days are long gone.
I understand that our innocent and enjoyable e-bike 30 miles a day will be gone (unless the law is changed) but until that we like the idea of folders packed into the back of the Golf and off to areas where we can ride safely - towpaths and level cycle paths and sea front promenades.
Tommie will know about Newcastle, Carrick, Bangor and Portrush.
For the foreseeable future hills are out for us but a 5 mile cycle on level ground is better than sitting here waiting on political buffoons to decide what we do with the relatively few minutes we have left in this life.
I haven’t had the support I expected from the Green Party so it will be just another car on the roads to get us to where we would normally have cycled. So be it.
I would expect that most of you will be familiar with Bromptons but as an ex-engineer I can appreciate good workmanship and these are excellent.
Built in shop from stock to our own specification with a very clever design and the size and convenience of an 11kg suitcase.
We obviously have to keep the e-bikes until we can use them again or that the dealer will be allowed to return them to the manufacturer as unusable and unsaleable (sp) in this backwater section of the UK.
In any case we have the room to store two e-bikes and two folders and like so many of you with the choice of a garage full of bikes at least we will always have the ability to be out and about again - legally.
This is of course being dependant on Flecc or others who will know of a law restricting the use of a Brompton by a pensioner with a bad attitude.
As an informative member, you have no chance of that happening here. Good luck with your Brompton's Ted and Mrs Ted. Let us know how that goes please.OK Guys, this is where I am about to be evicted from the forum.
Bromptons are great bikes. Though you don't want to tackle hills, the smaller the wheel, the greater the mechanical advantage, so the 16" Brompton rear wheel will enable you to do more than you probably think on moderate slopes.This is of course being dependant on Flecc or others who will know of a law restricting the use of a Brompton by a pensioner with a bad attitude.
E-bike batteries out of use deteriorate and should have a top up charge every two months or so, never leave more than three months without charging or the cells can fail, dropping below minimum voltage.
Since yours may be out of use for a long time, if they are still ok an alternative would be to sell them to other users of your models. Then if ever legality occurs you could start again with new batteries.
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I had been "topping up" every two months and after you reminded me just now I have popped them on again. Both batteries have dropped one segment which from memory would have been about 10 miles.
We honestly never thought we would miss something as much as we are doing but as the saying goes........
If it should happen that we are permanently denied the legal and safe use of these bikes again we will always remember the good times and never regret a minute of them.
Pah - I've been called a lot worse than that.Hooligans!
Anne however is whiter than white.
The situation with regards to ebikes here in NI is simply ridiculous. Forty years ago I could fly down hills at nearly 40 mph on a conventional bike without having to worry about 'the law'. Now if I potter along at 10-15 mph on an ebike I'm considered as some kind of threat to the public. With increasing gridlock on our city streets, surely this is a time when alternative methods of travel, including ebikes, should be encouraged?
Near enough word for word albeit in my case 50 years ago!
I had a mate who worked in the Belfast Jaguar workshop and he got my bike, frame and forks nickel plated. Looked the business.
"Dropped bars" and the real deal of the time - centre pull brakes, front and rear no less but even with a standard 5 cog derailleur some proper speed down the hill to the Stranmillis Embankment.
Admittedly irresponsible.
Now as pensioners with a lot more consideration for others we are breaking the law on e-bikes just because we need a little bit of help.
But of course. It's a situation that no sane person wants to have existing, but it's an unfortunate byproduct of the shambles which is NI governance. Nobody comes out of this with credit, neither the NI political parties all sides, or their London counterparts...
Just been listening on the BBC news about the shocking state of the NHS in Northern Ireland. Large numbers are waiting over a year for essential treatment and some 3000 patients have exceeded two years waiting. Blame is being squarely put on the lack of a sitting Assembly and Health Minister.
From where I am I believe the UK government should immediately impose direct rule to first sort out the mess and then insist the national parties there get their act together or lose the right to self rule.
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I believe I started this thread what seems like 25 years ago and it has become a monster.
What a shame it couldn't have all been about like minded people using ebikes instead of the political shambles which is Northern Ireland, a complicated part of the UK.
I obviously appreciate the help and support from so many of you guys but what a mess and sinking.
Because of a legacy of an industrial accident in 1993 I have been involved in the NHS for quite a while but after returning here I have found it to be a nightmare.
Only 1.8 million people in the whole country but the waiting times are as bad as you have read.
2.8 million people in Greater Manchester!
What a shame it couldn't have all been about like minded people using ebikes instead of the political shambles which is Northern Ireland, a complicated part of the UK.
I obviously appreciate the help and support from so many of you guys but what a mess and sinking.
Because of a legacy of an industrial accident in 1993 I have been involved in the NHS for quite a while but after returning here I have found it to be a nightmare.
Only 1.8 million people in the whole country but the waiting times are as bad as you have read.
2.8 million people in Greater Manchester!
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The British government should legislate on the issues that deeply divide the two main parties, thus taking them away from local politicians. I have a niece currently in the middle of her nursing degree course. I hope that young people like her stay and make a difference.
By presenting an N.I. Budget the Secretary of State has in effect done just that.
Also in there is an additional £410 million obtained by the DUP, a sizeable chunk of that will be going towards Health where it`s desperately needed.
Jeffrey Donaldson MPVerified account@J_Donaldson_MP Mar 20
In the House of Commons for the Northern Ireland Budget Bill which includes the additional £410 million secured by the DUP for health, education, roads, deprived communities & mental health services. #DUPdelivery – at Houses of Parliament
Not my business to interfere of course, but I still think it needs a hand on the tiller to give direction. Just leaving it to the civil service to run things is going to produce continuing problems.
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Sorry guys but those who are still interested I continue to do my best to harass those who are tormenting us here in this little segment of the UK.
Obviously I didn’t reveal my sources or any names.
Apologies that it is so long.
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Quote Flecc circa 4.4.18
But one can still be the victim of a zealous officer combined with an unfortunate event.
But I've spotted a possible nonsense at the core of this, the Chief Constable's mention that the e-bike must be registered with the DVLA. Isn't N.I.s transport law suppose to be devolved, and if so, why must they register with the external DVLA, if that is indeed the external one?
If they must register with the mainland DVLA, then that DVLA has authority. And if it has authority, it can issue a waiver to circumvent the law, as it did here to allow 250 watts when the law prescribed a 200 watt limit. Then on 13th April 2013 they issue a directive to all Chief Officers that over 200 watts but under 250 watts was not to be prosecuted, and that directive remained in force until 6th April 2015 when we adopted EU law.
If the DVLA mentioned is indeed the mainland one, this issue should go to a good solicitor for further examination and action at law, since there would be a clear case of discrimination against N.I. citizens.
Even if you have your own DVLA, the case is similar, merely losing the discrimination element.
Just as Parliament wasn't necessary for our DVLA to issue a waiver, a DVLA of your own can issue a similar waiver without the Assembly sitting since you have UK precedent. Like ours, such a waiver doesn't have to be time limited it can be similarly open ended.
Either way, this shows that statements that nothing can be done without a sitting Assembly are untrue.
If so it appears that DVLA Swansea may have an authority to issue a waiver or could agree a waiver in conjunction with DVA N.I., giving guidance to N.I.'s Chief Constable to allow regulation EPACs as bicycles. It's certain from the Chief Constable's letter that he would welcome such a waiver, since it would regularise what he clearly desires.
Such waivers are within civil service discretion as the law makers, and are authorised by a statement of intent at the time that the law is intended to be amended to suit at a later date, no specified time limit necessary. No Parliamentary or Assembly approval/disapproval is necessary since that follows at a future date when the law is up for amendment.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reply from Stormont 12.4.18.
Thank you so much for your recent emails in which you have updated me on further information received from a source in England in relation to the implementation of regulations on E-bikes.
Presently, the regulations governing such matters are indeed devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly and in the absence of devolution, it is essential the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland act to update our regulations here. We are presently in discussion with the Government at Westminster about the need to introduce a limited form of direct rule for a temporary period pending the restoration of a devolved Government at Stormont. This would enable the Northern Ireland Office to implement changes to legislation, perhaps in consultation with the Assembly.
I do hope that the Northern Ireland Office will soon put in place measures that enable the Government at Westminster to approve legislation that is awaiting implementation in Northern Ireland. Whilst our preference would be for the restoration of a devolved Government, it seems that we will need a period of direct rule to ensure that these type of regulations are implemented in this part of the United Kingdom.
On the point made in your email of 4th April about measures being introduced without the need for Parliamentary or Assembly approval, it may be the case that the Civil Service has some discretion but I am not sure that this extends to implementing changes to legislation that normally require either Parliamentary or Assembly consent. This is a point on which we can seek clarification from the Secretary of State in due course.
With kind regards,
Yours sincerely
************** ****************
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Another reply from a different political position.
Changes in regulations by UK wide organizations like DVLC Swansea now require ratification in the regions of devolved administration.
The current absence of a devolved assembly in our area would appear to make ratification unlikely at present but just as in the case of enabling budget-setting for NI a simple Bill could be submitted in Westminster and ratification quickly provided by that means.
In comparing the two cases I conclude that the Secretary of State believes that one problem is small compared to the other.
From reading the detail you provided it seems that it would be possible for DVLA Swansea (which also covers NI) to issue the waiver. However, I believe that the Good Friday Agreement included the requirement for confirmation of any law or rule changes by the devolved assembly - hence In the current situation the SoS would need to introduce a bill in Westminster.
With kind regards
******* **********
.
Obviously I didn’t reveal my sources or any names.
Apologies that it is so long.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Quote Flecc circa 4.4.18
But one can still be the victim of a zealous officer combined with an unfortunate event.
But I've spotted a possible nonsense at the core of this, the Chief Constable's mention that the e-bike must be registered with the DVLA. Isn't N.I.s transport law suppose to be devolved, and if so, why must they register with the external DVLA, if that is indeed the external one?
If they must register with the mainland DVLA, then that DVLA has authority. And if it has authority, it can issue a waiver to circumvent the law, as it did here to allow 250 watts when the law prescribed a 200 watt limit. Then on 13th April 2013 they issue a directive to all Chief Officers that over 200 watts but under 250 watts was not to be prosecuted, and that directive remained in force until 6th April 2015 when we adopted EU law.
If the DVLA mentioned is indeed the mainland one, this issue should go to a good solicitor for further examination and action at law, since there would be a clear case of discrimination against N.I. citizens.
Even if you have your own DVLA, the case is similar, merely losing the discrimination element.
Just as Parliament wasn't necessary for our DVLA to issue a waiver, a DVLA of your own can issue a similar waiver without the Assembly sitting since you have UK precedent. Like ours, such a waiver doesn't have to be time limited it can be similarly open ended.
Either way, this shows that statements that nothing can be done without a sitting Assembly are untrue.
If so it appears that DVLA Swansea may have an authority to issue a waiver or could agree a waiver in conjunction with DVA N.I., giving guidance to N.I.'s Chief Constable to allow regulation EPACs as bicycles. It's certain from the Chief Constable's letter that he would welcome such a waiver, since it would regularise what he clearly desires.
Such waivers are within civil service discretion as the law makers, and are authorised by a statement of intent at the time that the law is intended to be amended to suit at a later date, no specified time limit necessary. No Parliamentary or Assembly approval/disapproval is necessary since that follows at a future date when the law is up for amendment.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Reply from Stormont 12.4.18.
Thank you so much for your recent emails in which you have updated me on further information received from a source in England in relation to the implementation of regulations on E-bikes.
Presently, the regulations governing such matters are indeed devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly and in the absence of devolution, it is essential the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland act to update our regulations here. We are presently in discussion with the Government at Westminster about the need to introduce a limited form of direct rule for a temporary period pending the restoration of a devolved Government at Stormont. This would enable the Northern Ireland Office to implement changes to legislation, perhaps in consultation with the Assembly.
I do hope that the Northern Ireland Office will soon put in place measures that enable the Government at Westminster to approve legislation that is awaiting implementation in Northern Ireland. Whilst our preference would be for the restoration of a devolved Government, it seems that we will need a period of direct rule to ensure that these type of regulations are implemented in this part of the United Kingdom.
On the point made in your email of 4th April about measures being introduced without the need for Parliamentary or Assembly approval, it may be the case that the Civil Service has some discretion but I am not sure that this extends to implementing changes to legislation that normally require either Parliamentary or Assembly consent. This is a point on which we can seek clarification from the Secretary of State in due course.
With kind regards,
Yours sincerely
************** ****************
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Another reply from a different political position.
Changes in regulations by UK wide organizations like DVLC Swansea now require ratification in the regions of devolved administration.
The current absence of a devolved assembly in our area would appear to make ratification unlikely at present but just as in the case of enabling budget-setting for NI a simple Bill could be submitted in Westminster and ratification quickly provided by that means.
In comparing the two cases I conclude that the Secretary of State believes that one problem is small compared to the other.
From reading the detail you provided it seems that it would be possible for DVLA Swansea (which also covers NI) to issue the waiver. However, I believe that the Good Friday Agreement included the requirement for confirmation of any law or rule changes by the devolved assembly - hence In the current situation the SoS would need to introduce a bill in Westminster.
With kind regards
******* **********
.
Thanks for the update Ted. I think there is still some misunderstanding in both replies. A waiver is not a change in the law, it's merely a temporary permission/advice for the police to not implement that law, pending an anticipated change in the law at some future date. The justifiable basis for that anticipation is that it's mandatory EU law and general UK law that has not yet been passed in N.I. due to the Assembly not sitting at crucial times.
As that date is open ended, it can still be the Assembly eventually approving or not at such time as it ever again convenes. There is no need for the waiver to go to the Westminster parliament for approval meanwhile. It couldn't anyway, the civil service cannot ask parliament to pass a law asking the police to ignore a law!
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I have hopefully secured a face to face with a leading politician who, shall we say is a fanatical (albeit conventional) cyclist.
As you will be unable to accompany me I shall keep you informed of the outcome.
Although it would be great to have someone with political knowledge with me I believe my main objective will be to get a definitive answer from him as to how a Pedelec can be seen / classed as a moped.
I appear to still be at the "bottom of the ladder" regarding getting through to the most of them that what I am riding is no longer my 888 Ducati.
As you will be unable to accompany me I shall keep you informed of the outcome.
Although it would be great to have someone with political knowledge with me I believe my main objective will be to get a definitive answer from him as to how a Pedelec can be seen / classed as a moped.
I appear to still be at the "bottom of the ladder" regarding getting through to the most of them that what I am riding is no longer my 888 Ducati.
Well done Ted!!
At least you didn`t get the usual fobbing off of `you can now get your ebike registered in N.I. so get on with it).
I think it`s important to press home the discriminatory nature of how your bicycle is now registered and recognised in law as a moped in N.I.
Consequences of this are you are now unable to cycle on any cycle paths, towpaths, parkland routes etc as you are officially riding a moped/motorcycle and as such subject to be fined and also open to litigation from any accident.
Was that first reply from the Civil Service?
At least you didn`t get the usual fobbing off of `you can now get your ebike registered in N.I. so get on with it).
I think it`s important to press home the discriminatory nature of how your bicycle is now registered and recognised in law as a moped in N.I.
Consequences of this are you are now unable to cycle on any cycle paths, towpaths, parkland routes etc as you are officially riding a moped/motorcycle and as such subject to be fined and also open to litigation from any accident.
Was that first reply from the Civil Service?
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