Update on N.I. e-bike regs.

[flecc]

I am an OAP living in N. Ireland. I bought an ebike before I was aware of the law here. If I can ride one in GB or the rest of Ireland without running foul of idiotic laws that we have in the backward society that is NI, then I will continue to ride my ebike. I've seen several people on the roads riding their ebikes. Hopefully that number will grow to give a two-fingered salute to those who would restrict our rights.

That's exactly what we did in the mainland UK for the 10 years our 250 watt e-bikes were officially motorbikes according to our 1983 EAPC law.

Of course we had the advantage of there being over 150,000 of us, double the prison population that they already couldn't cope with, so could tell them exactly where to stick their law!
.

 

[Damian.Doherty]

Here are some other laws which are actually still in effect today:

1. All beached whales and sturgeons must be offered to the Reigning Monarch

2. No person shall, in the course of a business, import into England, potatoes which he knows, or has reasonable cause to suspect, are from Poland

3. It is Illegal to be drunk in the pub

4. It is illegal to carry a plank along a pavement (as well as any ladder, wheel, pole, cask, placard, showboard, or hoop) in the Metropolitan Police District

5. MPs are not allowed to wear armour in Parliament

6. It is an offence to be drunk and in charge of cattle in England and Wales

7. It is illegal to handle a salmon in suspicious circumstances

8. It is an offence to beat or shake any carpet, rug, or mat (except door mats before 8am) in a thoroughfare in the Metropolitan Police District

9. It is illegal to jump the queue in the Tube ticket hall

10. It is illegal to activate your burglar alarm without first nominating a ‘Key-Holder’ who can switch it off in your absence.

I hold this up as evidence that some laws just need updating, although you know the second they get rid of number 5 Boris Johnson will rock up to Parliament dressed as Sir Boris of Johnson in full armour!

 

[tommie]

Ted, just thinking out loud here, did you ever make an approach to any of our 3 MEP`s in Europe, ie Nicholson, Anderson or Dodds?
After all it`s an EU directive that still hasn`t been applied in one of the member states and consequently is discriminating against a section of the said population there?
Can`t see how Brussels/Strasbourg could accept that.

 

[TedG]

I am an OAP living in N. Ireland. I bought an ebike before I was aware of the law here. If I can ride one in GB or the rest of Ireland without running foul of idiotic laws that we have in the backward society that is NI, then I will continue to ride my ebike. I've seen several people on the roads riding their ebikes. Hopefully that number will grow to give a two-fingered salute to those who would restrict our rights.

There is little point in me replying to this post as it seems that I have already had it written for me!!!
Everything you say applies to us apart from the single sentence "continue to ride my e-bike".
We simply cannot do this with the knowledge that a simple innocent ride could result in a horrendous financial ending.

 

[TedG]

After returning from my assessment for admittance to the local Home for the Bewildered earlier today I rang a well established cycle dealers in Belfast and although the owner told me they don't deal in e-bikes he was astonished that anyone was actually adhering to these ludicrous laws.
He told me that he was a part of a major cycling group, supplying kit to most of them and also that some of the members needed to use e-bikes on the many runs which they partake in annually.
He has never heard of any of them backing out of a run because their bike was "illegal". He also said that several members were in the legal profession.
He was on occasions bordering on incredulity at my comments that a war was actually going on in this country regarding legal use of e-bikes.
It would appear that there are three forms of opinions currently occurring here.

1. A lot of people are simply burying their heads in the sand and blatantly ignoring and defying what is in effect a standing and active law. They are also driving an uninsured and untaxed car in the knowledge that nothing is really likely to happen.

2. Something very nasty and unpleasant involving litigation is just around the corner.

3. My wife and I are not preparing to be involved in items One or Two.

 

[LeighPing]

A bicycle is also illegal if it doesn't have reflective pedals on it Ted. That could also lead to an accident. But it doesn't stop people from riding them.

 

[tommie]

This won`t help your present state of mind Ted, but in one of our local Government run Forest Parks, Castlewellan in particular, ebikes are freely available to hire to all and sundry!

"Get the buzz and explore more with our Electric Mountain Bike hire service located at the Castlewellan Trail Centre on the edge of the stunning Mourne Mountains, County Down, and Northern Irelands TOP trails.


Our self-guided E-Bike hire packages include everything needed to get you started on the local Roads, Tracks & Trails or further afield... Simply Book, Collect & Go Further!"

there you go - no registration, no number plates, no insurance sweet f-all in fact, jump on and go!!

all courtesy of our local government no less
......... see here https://www.onegreatadventure.com/electric_mountain_bike_hire_castlewellan_forest_park_ireland_online_booking

 

[TedG]

A bicycle is also illegal if it doesn't have reflective pedals on it Ted. That could also lead to an accident. But it doesn't stop people from riding them.

Yes indeed but with all due respect to you my wife and I endured a 78 month war (and I mean WAR) with an obstinate insurance company several years ago after my industrial accident.
It almost broke us mentally and neither of us has fully recovered even though the result went in our favour.
When I drove 44 tonne artics loaded with steel I was squeaky clean.
I saw a lot of poor driving in those years but that didn't influence me to emulate it.
I would love to be young again and go leaping everywhere but I'm afraid I am past the carefree days .

 

[TedG]

This won`t help your present state of mind Ted, but in one of our local Government run Forest Parks, Castlewellan in particular, ebikes are freely available to hire to all and sundry!

"Get the buzz and explore more with our Electric Mountain Bike hire service located at the Castlewellan Trail Centre on the edge of the stunning Mourne Mountains, County Down, and Northern Irelands TOP trails.


Our self-guided E-Bike hire packages include everything needed to get you started on the local Roads, Tracks & Trails or further afield... Simply Book, Collect & Go Further!"

there you go - no registration, no number plates, no insurance sweet f-all in fact, jump on and go!!

all courtesy of our local government no less
......... see here https://www.onegreatadventure.com/electric_mountain_bike_hire_castlewellan_forest_park_ireland_online_booking

Yes Tommie we have actually been at that very park and went into the well equipped store and were shown around an array of well used e-bikes and saw quite a lot being washed in another compound. You will know where I mean.
The attendants were most helpful although we never told them that we owned and (used to) use e-bikes. They suggested that the park was free to sensible users and "if you feel inclined we have no problems with you going out onto the roads".
It was all very tempting (even though you will know the topography of the gentle slopes of Castlewellan ) but I have to agree that the entire legal structure is well and truly flawed with this governmental encouragement on one hand and restrictive laws on the other.

 

[Danidl]

This won`t help your present state of mind Ted, but in one of our local Government run Forest Parks, Castlewellan in particular, ebikes are freely available to hire to all and sundry!

"Get the buzz and explore more with our Electric Mountain Bike hire service located at the Castlewellan Trail Centre on the edge of the stunning Mourne Mountains, County Down, and Northern Irelands TOP trails.


Our self-guided E-Bike hire packages include everything needed to get you started on the local Roads, Tracks & Trails or further afield... Simply Book, Collect & Go Further!"

there you go - no registration, no number plates, no insurance sweet f-all in fact, jump on and go!!

all courtesy of our local government no less
......... see here https://www.onegreatadventure.com/electric_mountain_bike_hire_castlewellan_forest_park_ireland_online_booking

But are not these bikes off the public road? . It must be intensely flustrating, when nobody will step up to the mark.

 

[TedG]

But are not these bikes off the public road? . It must be intensely flustrating, when nobody will step up to the mark.

No Danidl, when we went there to "test the reaction" we were told that they had no objection to us leaving the park should we choose and cycling on the public road network outside its boundries.
But we read that as, they had no objections, not that doing so was illegal.
A subtle difference although it could be said that users should actually have been informed of the complexities of the law.

 

[Damian.Doherty]

Hi Ted,

I know that until the law is changed you simply will not feel happy getting back on your bike, and if you can't feel happy and relaxed, what's the point it doing it right?

The point of my earlier post about silly laws still in effect was to highlight that the police do have discretion in matters where they choose not to enforce a law.

The fact is that there are quite a few ebikes buzzing around Northern Ireland right now and to my knowledge, not a single person has been stopped or fined.

This does not address your biggest concern though, what happens if you have an accident......I honestly don't know what would happen. I actually think that if someone were to have an incident it could potentially expedite bringing us into line with the the rest of the UK.......of course it could go badly the other way too.

Did you read the story of the man caught drunk on a electric skateboard....it went to trial and the skateboard was deemed.....not to be a motor vehicle...which it technically was right up until the judges ruling.

Have a read here

Keep your chin up Ted, hopefully we'll get you back on your bike while your still in your 70s!

 

[flecc]

But are not these bikes off the public road? . It must be intensely flustrating, when nobody will step up to the mark.

Here in the mainland UK the law regarding motor vehicle use applies anywhere the public have access. Use off road on private land really does mean private, not even a public footpath going through it. Though as ever of course this aspect of the law is widely ignored.

Personally, despite knowing the law very well, I would e-bike in N.I., knowing that if stopped the worst that would happen would be a warning or a small fine. Since I've had a lifetime of cycling, motorcycling and driving without a scratch on me or anyone else, the risk of anything worse is very low.

However I can understand Ted's stance in his circumstances, this is a matter for personal judgement.
.

 

[Danidl]

Here in the mainland UK the law regarding motor vehicle use applies anywhere the public have access. Use off road on private land really does mean private, not even a public footpath going through it. Though as ever of course this aspect of the law is widely ignored.

Personally, despite knowing the law very well, I would e-bike in N.I., knowing that if stopped the worst that would happen would be a warning or a small fine. Since I've had a lifetime of cycling, motorcycling and driving without a scratch on me or anyone else, the risk of anything worse is very low.

However I can understand Ted's stance in his circumstances, this is a matter for personal judgement.
.

I would doubt whether any PSNI officer would bother, unless they saw dangerous behaviour, however, were there an accident, civil liability or compensation considerations would put the illegal party at a major disadvantage.
And even despite your experience, nothing can protect you from a door opening and someone stepping out. A broken leg can involve an expense of 30,000

 

[mike killay]

Hi Ted,

I know that until the law is changed you simply will not feel happy getting back on your bike, and if you can't feel happy and relaxed, what's the point it doing it right?

The point of my earlier post about silly laws still in effect was to highlight that the police do have discretion in matters where they choose not to enforce a law.

The fact is that there are quite a few ebikes buzzing around Northern Ireland right now and to my knowledge, not a single person has been stopped or fined.

This does not address your biggest concern though, what happens if you have an accident......I honestly don't know what would happen. I actually think that if someone were to have an incident it could potentially expedite bringing us into line with the the rest of the UK.......of course it could go badly the other way too.

Did you read the story of the man caught drunk on a electric skateboard....it went to trial and the skateboard was deemed.....not to be a motor vehicle...which it technically was right up until the judges ruling.

Have a read here

Keep your chin up Ted, hopefully we'll get you back on your bike while your still in your 70s!

I am not too sure that that particular case would be binding on higher courts.
It may yet be that the CPS will appeal the ruling.

 

[Damian.Doherty]

I am not too sure that that particular case would be binding on higher courts.
It may yet be that the CPS will appeal the ruling.

There was another case in 1999 where a person was on a Go-Ped electric scooter and was convicted of riding it drunk, the prosecutor cited this during the trial in 2013 and also stated that all hoverboards, Segways, electric scooters and skateboards were at that time, seen as motor vehicles.

I think that's what makes this story news worthy, everyone expected him to be prosecuted too, and the judge ruled the other way.

That an electric skateboard is not a motor vehicle.

I'm no legal expert so I don't no what this means in the grand scheme of things, but hypothetically, if I were to be involved in an accident and my Woosh Rio brought into the court, the judge would then have to look at it and rule whether it's:

A: A motocyclye
B: A bicycle
C: An electric assisted bicycle

If that were to happen, I would be very surprised if they decided it was a motorbike and judged me accordingly.

 

[flecc]

I think that's what makes this story news worthy, everyone expected him to be prosecuted too, and the judge ruled the other way.

Not a judge though, a magistrate, and they often get things wrong. The decision was clearly wrong. Even Crown Courts cannot definitively rule, that is the province of the High Court or Supreme Court.
.

 

[flecc]

And even despite your experience, nothing can protect you from a door opening and someone stepping out. A broken leg can involve an expense of 30,000

I don't ride like so many cyclists do these days, often much too fast for the circumstances. I'm from when 10 to 12 mph were common cycling speeds. When riding past parked cars or pedestrians on pavements I'm usually well clear and or not fast enough to break skin, let alone bone.

On shared paths I drop to almost the walkers speed when passing them, it shocks me how fast some pass walkers in the videos I see in here, asking for trouble.

These are why I've avoided accidents, not relying on luck. I enjoy speed when the circumstances are completely right, but those are increasingly rare with today's traffic levels.
.

 

[TedG]

Keep your chin up Ted, hopefully we'll get you back on your bike while your still in your 70s!

Hang about - who mentioned 70's. I am 68 and Anne is 65.

 

[Danidl]

There was another case in 1999 where a person was on a Go-Ped electric scooter and was convicted of riding it drunk, the prosecutor cited this during the trial in 2013 and also stated that all hoverboards, Segways, electric scooters and skateboards were at that time, seen as motor vehicles.

I think that's what makes this story news worthy, everyone expected him to be prosecuted too, and the judge ruled the other way.

That an electric skateboard is not a motor vehicle.

I'm no legal expert so I don't no what this means in the grand scheme of things, but hypothetically, if I were to be involved in an accident and my Woosh Rio brought into the court, the judge would then have to look at it and rule whether it's:

A: A motocyclye
B: A bicycle
C: An electric assisted bicycle

If that were to happen, I would be very surprised if they decided it was a motorbike and judged me accordingly.

They would be unlikely to classify it as a heavy goods vechicle . They would certainly classify as a C. Above. Because there is ample documentary evidence that that is what in law it is classed as.
I think the police were remiss in that hoverboard case. Had they gone for illegal use, rather than drunken driving they would have won. I am assuming that the magistrates took the view that the guy was being socially responsible by not driving and that the punishment for a second conviction for drunk drivingdrivin be Draconian. By any definition he was certainly a road user.