Update on N.I. e-bike regs.

[TedG]

Mike Killay
I tried to upload the official reply from the Chief Constable which was sent via a third party to me but the forum (?) rejected my attempts for whatever reason, probably my stupidity.
I have typed it out for information purposes.
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Electric Bicycles and Law in Northern Ireland.

Thank you for your letter of 8th August 2017 to the Chief Constable, to which he has asked that I respond on his behalf.

Having given due cognisance to the media interest surrounding the use of electric bikes in Northern Ireland, Roads Policing have recently issued the following by way of guidance and advice to all officers and staff.

Great Britain made Electrically Assisted Cycle Regulations in 1983. These regulations served to define and regularise the construction of electric cycles but with restrictions upon the power output and top speed.

Northern Ireland made provision in the Road Traffic (NI) Order 1995 for similar regulations which were not replicated in N.I. at that time. This means that electric bicycles are still regarded as motorcycles and consequently require to be registered with the DVLA. The rider must undertake CBT, wear protective headgear and insure the vehicle.

We understand that it is a concern for people who simply want to comply with the law and enjoy their cycle in the same way as those in Great Britain are able to do. While of course any individual Police Officer will always have discretion to deal with matters as they deem appropriate and according to the individual circumstances that prevail, it is not for the Chief Constable to issue directions that the law, as it applies with regard to electric bicycle users should be disregarded.

I trust this to be assistance to you at this time.

 

[LeighPing]

While of course any individual Police Officer will always have discretion to deal with matters as they deem appropriate and according to the individual circumstances that prevail, it is not for the Chief Constable to issue directions that the law, as it applies with regard to electric bicycle users should be disregarded.

Reading between the lines, as long as you don't cause a crash you'll be fine.

 

[TedG]

Reading between the lines, as long as you don't cause a crash you'll be fine.

Without going into boring (and painful) memories of an industrial accident which destroyed our lives I would have to say that prior to that day I was sure I was indestructible and had the confidence to go with that.
Since the accident I have neither and it is hard to bear most days.
Am I confidently sure that I will never "cause a crash, either in a car or on an illegal e-bike?", well the answer is no and as I have said so many times a few points on my 50 year old clean licence wouldn't cause me a sleepless night, however a case of a personal injury claim while on an illegal vehicle would be a nightmare.
After an unblemished lifetime on 2, 4, and 18 wheels am I now a coward?

Probably.

 

[flecc]

Reading between the lines, as long as you don't cause a crash you'll be fine.

But one can still be the victim of a zealous officer combined with an unfortunate event.

But I've spotted a possible nonsense at the core of this, the Chief Constable's mention that the e-bike must be registered with the DVLA. Isn't N.I.s transport law suppose to be devolved, and if so, why must they register with the external DVLA, if that is indeed the external one?

If they must register with the mainland DVLA, then that DVLA has authority. And if it has authority, it can issue a waiver to circumvent the law, as it did here to allow 250 watts when the law prescribed a 200 watt limit. Then on 13th April 2013 they issue a directive to all Chief Officers that over 200 watts but under 250 watts was not to be prosecuted, and that directive remained in force until 6th April 2015 whe we adopted EU law.

If the DVLA mentioned is indeed the mainland one, this issue should go to a good solicitor for further examination and action at law, since there would be a clear case of discrimination against N.I. citizens.
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[LeighPing]

Am I confidently sure that I will never "cause a crash, either in a car or on an illegal e-bike?", well the answer is no and as I have said so many times a few points on my 50 year old clean licence wouldn't cause me a sleepless night, however a case of a personal injury claim while on an illegal vehicle would be a nightmare.
After an unblemished lifetime on 2, 4, and 18 wheels am I now a coward?

Probably.

If @flecc's loophole in the law fails, you'd best sell those bikes, if you can over there, while they're still worth something. It's all a very time consuming affair and, after having had an electric bike, regular bikes aren't really a helpful or even a fun option.

The way it is gives you 3 options, as I see it;-

1. Ride it and risk it.

2. Don't ride it. Keep it off road whilst you hope for a change in the law.

3. Comply with the absurd law or sell it.

Did I miss anything?

 

[TedG]

Flecc, someone like yourself who is clever and of sound mind would be ideal to further these thoughts legally. I am tired and worn out with it all.

If I remember correctly around the beginning of 2018 I had a lot of contact with the CEO of the company whose bikes we bought.
In honesty he was really and genuinely concerned and assured me that he had his lawyers involved with the very points you have just made.
I still await the outcome but I believe that he was probably told that no matter where his bikes were being sold the owners should conform to the laws relating to those bikes in that part of the world.
I am believing this because the last correspondence I had from him was to "just register the bikes and enjoy them".
Yes and be banned from cycle lanes, towpaths etc and accept that we have bought mopeds?
I am not willing to have a heated debate with him because I need him on my side as we proceed with the plan to have him accept the bikes back and refunded accordingly.
Not at all what we want, but we also don't want two expensive ornaments.

 

[flecc]

Addition to my Above Post

Even if you have your own DVLA, the case is similar, merely losing the discrimination element.

Just as Parliament wasn't necessary for our DVLA to issue a waiver, a DVLA of your own can issue a similar waiver without the Assembly sitting since you have UK precedent. Like ours, such a waiver doesn't have to be time limited it can be similarly open ended.

Either way, this shows that statements that nothing can be done without a sitting Assembly are untrue.

Please let me know if you have your own DVLA or use our mainland one in Wales.
.

 

[TedG]

If @flecc's loophole in the law fails, you'd best sell those bikes, if you can over there, while they're still worth something. It's all a very time consuming affair and, after having had an electric bike, regular bikes aren't really a helpful or even a fun option.

The way it is gives you 3 options, as I see it;-

1. Ride it and risk it.

2. Don't ride it. Keep it off road whilst you hope for a change in the law.

3. Comply with the absurd law or sell it.

Did I miss anything?

Option 1 is out.
Option 2 is expensive and we are hoping for a return under a mis sold argument but we are trading carefully as this progresses.
Option 3. Refuse to use them as slow mopeds.
Undoubtedly unsaleable here and as Flecc has said they would be worth a fraction should we find a buyer in the more enlightened part of the UK.

 

[TedG]

Please let me know if you have your own DVLA or use our mainland one in Wales.
.

We have our own here but there are occasional "clashes" for various requirements.
I believe that ******** Anne while on her 15 minutes of fame trip was successful in registration via the DVLA Wales.
I could be wrong and I am in enough trouble here with my comments elsewhere which apparently upset some delicate souls.

 

[LeighPing]

Like it or not, you're going with option 2 then.

@TedG Did you buy them before the change in the law become public knowledge? If so, then the seller has sold it or them to you in good faith. Waiting for their 'good will' refund will probably take around the same amount of time as changing that law back. They won't be legally obliged to do that.

 

[craiggor]

Addition to my Above Post

Even if you have your own DVLA, the case is similar, merely losing the discrimination element.

Just as Parliament wasn't necessary for our DVLA to issue a waiver, a DVLA of your own can issue a similar waiver without the Assembly sitting since you have UK precedent. Like ours, such a waiver doesn't have to be time limited it can be similarly open ended.

Either way, this shows that statements that nothing can be done without a sitting Assembly are untrue.

Please let me know if you have your own DVLA or use our mainland one in Wales.
.

DVA N.I. licencing and MOT testing DVLA Swansea registration and tax.

Sent from my T1005 using Tapatalk

 

[craiggor]

Like it or not, you're going with option 2 then.

@TedG Did you buy them before the change in the law become public knowledge? If so, then the seller has sold it or them to you in good faith. Waiting for their 'good will' refund will probably take around the same amount of time as changing that law back. They won't be legally obliged to do that.

Option 4 register then ride on tow paths cycle lanes. James Bond flip up number plates may be advisable.

Sent from my T1005 using Tapatalk

 

[TedG]

As we were living in England between 1978 and 2011 we had no knowledge of the ongoing nightmare involving e-bikes here in N.I.
When we returned in 2011 we bought two bikes but were never told that the anomaly in the law existed. I believe we should have been told even though it was in a "grey" area.

It has apparently been active since 1995.

Apparently many dealers and riders knew that there was a dusty law lying about somewhere but they largely ignored it and many are still doing do.

I have reignited the idea of a return / refund idea with the dealer who assures me that he will contact the manufacturer because he "can't shift the stock which he currently has" and is intending returning them in their original boxes.

Many thanks to all of you guys for your help, support and advice. The battle will continue just as soon as my headache subsides.

Sorry EDIT
We returned here in 2011. We bought the bikes in 2017 not 2011. My mistake.

 

[flecc]

DVA N.I. licencing and MOT testing DVLA Swansea registration and tax.

Thanks Craiggor, very messy arrangement. I assume by licencing you meant driver licencing.

If so it appears that DVLA Swansea may have an authority to issue a waiver or could agree a waiver in conjunction with DVA N.I., giving guidance to N.I.'s Chief Constable to allow regulation EPACs as bicycles. It's certain from the Chief Constable's letter that he would welcome such a waiver, since it would regularise what he clearly desires.

Such waivers are within civil service discretion as the law makers, and are authorised by a statement of intent at the time that the law is intended to be amended to suit at a later date, no specified time limit necessary. No Parliamentary or Assembly approval/disapproval is necessary since that follows at a future date when the law is up for amendment.
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[flecc]

As we were living in England between 1978 and 2011 we had no knowledge of the ongoing nightmare involving e-bikes here in N.I.
When we returned in 2011 we bought two bikes but were never told that the anomaly in the law existed.

The same "nightmare" existed in mainland Britain from 10th November 2003 to 13th April 2013 when the waiver was issued. For that ten years and technically two further years, our EAPC law ruled that all e-bikes over 200 watts were motorcycles that had to be registered.

Since the great majority of those on the road were 250 watt machines, we were all offenders and the bikes you bought were illegal here too the time you bought them in 2011.
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[craiggor]

Thanks Craiggor, very messy arrangement. I assume by licencing you meant driver licencing.

If so it appears that DVLA Swansea may have an authority to issue a waiver or could agree a waiver in conjunction with DVA N.I., giving guidance to N.I.'s Chief Constable to allow regulation EPACs as bicycles. It's certain from the Chief Constable's letter that he would welcome such a waiver, since it would regularise what he clearly desires.

Such waivers are within civil service discretion as the law makers, and are authorised by a statement of intent at the time that the law is intended to be amended to suit at a later date, no specified time limit necessary. No Parliamentary or Assembly approval/disapproval is necessary since that follows at a future date when the law is up for amendment.
.

Yes driver licencing. Has Anne set set some sort of precedent ? Wait until Boris or one of his cronies gets a hold of this. Gov.UK is the law 250w maximum plain and simple. Not some EU pages and pages of nonsense about how long a motor can run at 250w without overheating.

Sent from my T1005 using Tapatalk

 

[flecc]

Gov.UK is the law 250w maximum plain and simple. Not some EU pages and pages of nonsense about how long a motor can run at 250w without overheating.

Actually not so I'm afraid. The UK was one of only two member countries immediately signing EN15194 into national law, so we are stuck with all those pages.

The other country was France.
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[tommie]

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/vehicle-registration-and-licensing-in-northern-ireland

most has been transferred over to Swansea except MOT & Driver Testing

 

[flecc]

Flecc, someone like yourself who is clever and of sound mind would be ideal to further these thoughts legally.

Unfortunately I know from past experience that I cannot do this Ted.

Government departments will never accept such representations from anyone not involved in the matter, and as an English person living in England any approach I make pertaining to N.I. would be rejected. The only exception would be if I was a lawyer acting for an N.I. citizen.

I'm willing to advise and inform from my in-depth knowledge of the legal developments over time, but the actions have to come from N.I.
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[MRMAC9]

Unfortunately I know from past experience that I cannot do this Ted.

Government departments will never accept such representations from anyone not involved in the matter, and as an English person living in England any approach I make pertaining to N.I. would be rejected. The only exception would be if I was a lawyer acting for an N.I. citizen.

I'm willing to advise and inform from my in-depth knowledge of the legal developments over time, but the actions have to come from N.I.
.

I am an OAP living in N. Ireland. I bought an ebike before I was aware of the law here. If I can ride one in GB or the rest of Ireland without running foul of idiotic laws that we have in the backward society that is NI, then I will continue to ride my ebike. I've seen several people on the roads riding their ebikes. Hopefully that number will grow to give a two-fingered salute to those who would restrict our rights.