Update on N.I. e-bike regs.

[TedG]

As all of you guys will know this is a fiasco of Biblical proportions and personally I cannot see it being resolved with or without a government here.

I have already (reluctantly) drafted a letter to the manufacturer suggesting that either him or his agents should have researched the legalities in every country which he intended appointing E-bike dealers for his product.
I feel I will have to post it soon and this will be the start of some difficult times for both of us as I will obviously get the CAB involved.
I have spoken to the owner many times and to be fair he is a really decent bloke and is genuinely very disappointed that our bikes are gathering dust. However he said that he knew nothing of such laws so is politely disputing my "miss sold" idea.

When we spent 33 years living in Gtr Manchester I had no problems with my Powabyke (apart from the weight ) and upon returning "home" here we were totally unaware of the "missing" law which made ebikes illegal when we bought two really smart and excellent bikes.

As so many of you say the PSNI will probably turn a blind eye to two old scroats on bicycles but as I continue to say that will only remain until there is some sort of incident which brings what are effectually illegal bikes to their attention.

As I write I am astonished to see a "monkey" type scrambler bike whizzing along the narrow footpath bordering the country road on which we live. Rider in his very early teens without any sort of headgear or proper clothing, certainly unregistered without a rear plate and a serious hazard to all other road and footpath users.
I despair.

 

[craiggor]

As Ted says, it's not the registration that's the real objection. It's the fact that thereafter the bike is fully treated as a motorcycle in N.I.

That means number plate, annual free VED renewal, third party motor vehicle insurance which is difficult and expensive to obtain for bike based machines, a BS certified motorcycle helmet, no access to cycling facilities. Even using a bicycle rack on a pavement is illegal, parking has to be in motorcycle bays or the road where parking is permitted. The statement by the DfT that Twist and Go e-bikes will be treated as EAPCs does not apply in N.I. due to their devolved powers.

To complicate matters further, there is no driving licence class for these low speed machines and N.I. has not adopted the category Q group. So a pedelec is in a legal limbo, neither permitted nor banned. Can one be ridden at all legally or will riding one always mean it's ridden illegally? Their police don't seem to know.
.

My objection is not the law in N.I. It is that if I or anyone else wants to visit N.I. from the R.O.I, England,Scotland or Wales on a E.A.P.C. they will have to register here first which you know if you want to register a kit bike here requires a M.S.V.A test £80 or CoC for new bikes.
In Teds post #147 He received a letter on behalf of the secretary of state saying that the process of registering an E.A.P.C in N.I. has been given a clear path through the gov.UK portal.£55 reg fee and proof of insurance No mention of certificate of conformity or M.S.V.A. My objection as I said before is that I have to get a M.S.V.A. before I can ride my bike in Northern Ireland. How can the N.I. government give a clear path to registration without M.S.V.A if they cannot grant E.A.P.C the same rules as us ? If there is a clear path for registration in NI is there now a clear path for registration without CoC or M.S.V.A. here so I can ride my bike in N.I. ?

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[flecc]

If there is a clear path for registration in NI is there now a clear path for registration without CoC or M.S.V.A. here so I can ride my bike in N.I. ?

No there is no clear path here to do that, the law is quite clear on that*. The N.I. position appears to be based on ad hoc statements by politicians, but as I've observed, there are still outstanding questions regarding pedelec usage in N.I. Their police haven't the answers so I mistrust everything said about the position there.

The important thing to note is that although N.I. is in breach of EU law in not having an EAPC classification, it is not in the wrong by requiring motorcycle rules to be applied. That is because their usage is ruled on by member countries and that varies widely.

* The DfT announced at the time of the 2015 EAPC amendments that there would be a form of UK only type approval for Twist and Go e-bikes to be regarded as pedelecs introduced in January 2018. I said at the time that this was unlikely under EU rules and I was right, since it never happened. I doubt it will ever happen even after leaving the EU.
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[craiggor]

No there is no clear path here to do that, the law is quite clear on that*. The N.I. position appears to be based on ad hoc statements by politicians, but as I've observed, there are still outstanding questions regarding pedelec usage in N.I. Their police haven't the answers so I mistrust everything said about the position there.

The important thing to note is that although N.I. is in breach of EU law in not having an EAPC classification, it is not in the wrong by requiring motorcycle rules to be applied. That is because their usage is ruled on by member countries and that varies widely.

* The DfT announced at the time of the 2015 EAPC amendments that there would be a form of UK only type approval for Twist and Go e-bikes to be regarded as pedelecs introduced in January 2018. I said at the time that this was unlikely under EU rules and I was right, since it never happened. I doubt it will ever happen even after leaving the EU.
.

And my other question how can The N.I. government give a clear path to regeistration without CoC or M.S.V.A. and they cannot give an E.A.P.C the same freedoms as us ?

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[flecc]

And my other question how can The N.I. government give a clear path to regeistration without CoC or M.S.V.A. and they cannot give an E.A.P.C the same freedoms as us ?

It's a very long story which needs you to read the whole 9 page thread.

However, in a nutshell, N.I. has devolved transport law, but that largely follows UK law and must comply with EU law.

But those can only happen when the N.I. Government Assembly passes them into law. Unfortunately, due to the troublesome relationship between the two main parties of the DUP and Sinn Fein, the Assembly has often collapsed and not been sitting.

That was the case at crucial times when we brought in the EAPC laws, when we amended those laws and when the EU Type Approval law was passed to member countries with the order to implement it by a certain date, which date passed without a sitting assembly.

So there's a huge hole in their laws on pedelecs, leaving them only with their motorcycle law.

And I repeat, I doubt the legality of what they are saying about registration without a CoC or MSVA. I think it's just expediency with no legal basis and certainly doesn't fit EU law, hence no legality for such machines here.
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[craiggor]

It's a very long story which needs you to read the whole 9 page thread.

However, in a nutshell, N.I. has devolved transport law, but that largely follows UK law and must comply with EU law.

But those can only happen when the N.I. Government Assembly passes them into law. Unfortunately, due to the troublesome relationship between the two main parties of the DUP and Sinn Fein, the Assembly has often collapsed and not been sitting.

That was the case at crucial times when we brought in the EAPC laws, when we amended those laws and when the EU Type Approval law was passed to member countries with the order to implement it by a certain date, which date passed without a sitting assembly.

So there's a huge hole in their laws on pedelecs, leaving them only with their motorcycle law.

And I repeat, I doubt the legality of what they are saying about registration without a CoC or MSVA. I think it's just expediency with no legal basis and certainly doesn't fit EU law, hence no legality for such machines here.
.

So if you register your bike in N.I without CoC or M.S.V.A you still won't be 100% legal.

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[flecc]

So if you register your bike in N.I without CoC or M.S.V.A you still won't be 100% legal.

It certainly won't comply with EU mandatory law. On construction and approval it must be acceptable in all EU countries, but what N.I. is saying isn't acceptable anywhere else in the EU.

Also what they are saying probably breaches their own law. They say pedelecs have to be treated as motorcycles, but motorcycles are subject to CoCs and MSVA.
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[TedG]

Interesting to read all your comments.
I can't help but think that we will be in trouble here soon and in the event of the dealer / manufacturers refusing to accept our bikes back again - denying misellng - does anyone have any ideas as to how we could sell them in the more agreeable part of the UK?
Volt Infinity (£2500 new) with 800 miles.
Volt Pulse (£1500 new) with 700 miles.
Both well cared for and maintained.
Both excellent bikes but possibly no further use to us.
Ideas?

 

[tommie]

C`mon Ted don`t give up..... hang in there.

 

[flecc]

Interesting to read all your comments.
I can't help but think that we will be in trouble here soon and in the event of the dealer / manufacturers refusing to accept our bikes back again - denying misellng - does anyone have any ideas as to how we could sell them in the more agreeable part of the UK?
Volt Infinity (£2500 new) with 800 miles.
Volt Pulse (£1500 new) with 700 miles.
Both well cared for and maintained.
Both excellent bikes but possibly no further use to us.
Ideas?

Sadly pedelec resale prices are very poor in the UK Ted, probably due to the very small size of the market. Usually there's little chance of getting half new price and I've seen many recent pedelecs go at less than a third of new price.

You could try our free ads section in combination with ebay, that's what most seem to do.
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[TedG]

C`mon Ted don`t give up..... hang in there.

Don't want to give up mate but we are both in middle 60s and not getting any younger by the day. The government is however in nowhere near as much of a hurry as we are.

 

[tommie]

I don`t think we`ve played the `discrimination` card enough.

After all why should there be a difference between an ebiker in say Liverpool and one in Belfast, both are UK/EU citizens are we not?

Why should one be tortured with a registration process along with the financial outlay when the other can jump on their bike and go ahead?

There should not be double standards.

Case of Discrimination? Am i wrong?

 

[craiggor]

Your not wrong Tommie but try telling that to the powers to be. If they can't sort this how can we trust them to sort anything.

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[flecc]

I don`t think we`ve played the `discrimination` card enough.

After all why should there be a difference between an ebiker in say Liverpool and one in Belfast, both are UK/EU citizens are we not?

Why should one be tortured with a registration process along with the financial outlay when the other can jump on their bike and go ahead?

There should not be double standards.

Case of Discrimination? Am i wrong?

You are probably right to a degree on two grounds, though one only lasts while we are in the EU.

The EU has a general principle that any EU benefit enjoyed by any EU citizen must be available to any other citizen of the EU. However, that only applies to the right to have an EAPC law on construction. Usage of any vehicle type is ruled on by member countries.

The purpose of that is all vehicle types should be legal in any member country, though how used under local control.
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[TedG]

No Tommie you are not wrong.
The same answer however is easy for those in power, brush us under the carpet whilst "playing their card" which is "we can't agree and until we can we will continue to trouser the wages".
I might have already said that just before the holidays I had an unsatisfactory reply from the SOS (I think I posted it somewhere) and I replied to it, putting her straight once again about our dissatisfaction re the obvious discrimination.
I also wrote again to two leading politicians who to be fair to them and their secretaries always reply and I am therefore awaiting their response.
I have already received the standard reply stating that they are on holiday and I believe we are all too well aware that they have been on holiday for a very long time.
As Flecc says pedelecs are a niche market and as a result our issues and problems are never going to be high on the agenda.

 

[Damian.Doherty]

I could almost live with having to register my bike, and I could almost live with having to pay insurance, I already wear a helmet so that doesn't bother me..

it still infuriates me that we are being discriminated against...

.....but what does bother me is the fact that my bike will then have the status of motorbike.....which means I can no longer use cycle paths.

Anyone who's familiar with Derry will know that we have two road bridges at either end of the town and then a pedestrian bridge, know as the Peace Bridge right in the middle, which is also a cycle path. This is how I get to work everyday so not being able to use it will make my journey significantly longer!

I know a few other people have said this but if this is going to be the law then I would be better off just buying a motorbike!

One other thing......I recently bought an electric skateboard, a WowGo 2S which I commuted to work on last Thursday......I've no idea what the law says about that but I'm sure its all fine!

By the way, for anyone thinking about getting an electric skateboard.....do it!

 

[flecc]

One other thing......I recently bought an electric skateboard, a WowGo 2S which I commuted to work on last Thursday......I've no idea what the law says about that but I'm sure its all fine!

The law on those is very clear in the main UK and has been for a very long time.

Back in 1835, parliament got alarmed by those who added steam power to wheeled vehicles and drove them on the roads. So they passed the Highway Act 1835 which has the effect of banning all powered vehicles.

Since then any powered vehicle is automatically illegal unless specifically permitted in law by type.

That's why these skateboards, Segways etc can't be used here, they have no specific permission for use.

Of course 1835 was long before the N.I. Assembly and devolved transport so I don't know the Act's status there, it or its equivalent may be in force as being prior to the devolvement.

That's what you'll need to find out if you want clarification.
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[TedG]

Totally 100% agree Damian. Discrimination.

When I think back to the great and innocent times we had cycling to the Titanic Quarter and other places which my health issues would have prohibited me from visiting I remember thinking just how good it was and what would ever prevent us from our simple hobby. How naïve was I?

In your case Damian it is a necessity but ours was just social leisure and suddenly it is gone at the hands of idiotic bureaucracy.

As Anne said only last evening "This is just so very sad" and I remember silently cursing those who have stolen yet another section of the remnants of my life.

 

[mike killay]

Has anybody in NI obtained a proper legal opinion?
The Police etc. can only advise as to what they think that the law is.
What was the government situation when the electrically assisted pedal cycle regulations 1983 were made?
Did the NI government if it existed then, enact parallel regulations?
Do those regulations still exist in NI?

 

[craiggor]

Has anybody in NI obtained a proper legal opinion?
The Police etc. can only advise as to what they think that the law is.
What was the government situation when the electrically assisted pedal cycle regulations 1983 were made?
Did the NI government if it existed then, enact parallel regulations?
Do those regulations still exist in NI?

See post 92 in this thread. Looks like Anne just filled in a registration form and sent of her £55 and proof of insurance. See gov.uk electric bikes licensing tax and insurance.Click on the rules are different for Northern Ireland to see how she did it. They seem to be more bothered about proving your identity than the legality of the bike.

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