Unplugging the battery BRICKS this device; you MUST go back to the manufacturer
- Thread starter soundwave
- Start date
He says "...if you disconnect the battery from the BMS you have to send the device back..." Isn't that exactly the same boobytrap Bosch use to prevent recelling? At least Bosch owners have the option to purchase a whole new battery pack, albeit at an inflated cost.
It's a premium product with a very controlled user experience and they are focused on extracting the maximum amount of money from their customers. I personally never buy products like that from such companies. They probably have a high marketing budget because of their high margin and so will attract those consumers vulnerable to marketing rather than those who rationally assess what products to buy based on the product themselves. The product is purposely designed to go to landfill after a set amount of time same with Bosch ebikes pretty much or any proprietary product where its either not economic to repair or maybe even near impossible to repair years later.
Lets face it if you could design a product that attracted a special kind of idiot that kept throwing money at you year after year or you could design a product that was good for the environment but meant far less money came your way you would go with the former option. Everyone likes more money. It's the r ight choice commercially but the wrong choice for the consumer unless they have high disposable incomes and are quite happy to dispose of that income.
Lets face it if you could design a product that attracted a special kind of idiot that kept throwing money at you year after year or you could design a product that was good for the environment but meant far less money came your way you would go with the former option. Everyone likes more money. It's the r ight choice commercially but the wrong choice for the consumer unless they have high disposable incomes and are quite happy to dispose of that income.
The only way forward is for these brands/companies to fail, the world has to vote by ethics and avoid these types of products which have a short life expectancy.
We ALL need to make sure that the "WORD" gets out about Bosch and similar products.
I have mentioned it here before and received some Bosch (un)friendly joshing from the folks on Pedelec with too little brain, when I last mentioned it, but after WW2, the common name used to describe anything that was rubbish, was "BOSCH", or "Old Bosch"! It appears that the baby boomers and their parents understood things better in those days!
Every time I hear of someone starting to get interested in e-biking, I tell them to avoid Bosch like the plague.
I usually also make sure that they also understand the single point of failure that all middle motor e-bikes suffer from, as it is very easy to understand if properly explained.
That is usually more than enough to put them completely off buying any mid motor e-bike!
regards to all
Andy
I have mentioned it here before and received some Bosch (un)friendly joshing from the folks on Pedelec with too little brain, when I last mentioned it, but after WW2, the common name used to describe anything that was rubbish, was "BOSCH", or "Old Bosch"! It appears that the baby boomers and their parents understood things better in those days!
Every time I hear of someone starting to get interested in e-biking, I tell them to avoid Bosch like the plague.
I usually also make sure that they also understand the single point of failure that all middle motor e-bikes suffer from, as it is very easy to understand if properly explained.
That is usually more than enough to put them completely off buying any mid motor e-bike!
regards to all
Andy
I've got a Bosch drill about 40 years old still going strong and easy to fix with new carbon brushes but I haven't used it enough to wear through the original carbon brushes but its getting pretty close. It was a great product of its day. Nowadays Bosch drills can be pretty poor especially the green non professional models which I have heard of failing on first use. Miele washing machines are very reliable and wash well but in reality they are only just slightly more reliable then cheaper brands and repairs costs are horrific. They are best avoided in my opinion due to uneconomic repair costs but obviously if you buy a £1000 Miele washing machine a £300 repair may be acceptable to you but that is a long way from good value.
People need to look at the full picture of any product not just how nice it looks or which brand you recognise but what it will cost you long term. A lot of German cars are scrapped early because they have complicated performance engines and gearboxes and they have huge repair costs often making cars uneconomic to repair.
German cars 'among worst for engine failures' | Auto Express
Audi, BMW and VW ranked in the bottom 10 of a study into engine reliability
www.autoexpress.co.uk
I've had my Korean made car about 8 years from new and I've never done any repairs to it at all just basic servicing, wiper blades etc. It's still on its original battery and tyres and has a sealed engine cooling system that doesn't need topping up. It never burns oil and starts immediately. It is just a manual petrol car with no turbo. A simple car admittedly although has powered heated mirrors, air conditioning, 6 speaker audio system and other features but mechanically simple and I've totally abused the car with overloading it etc as its an estate and I've filled it to the brim at times.
The amount of people who buy German cars and then they claim they have been unlucky because they have had a lot of problems with theirs is ridiculous and BMW are renowned for being one of the least reliable motorbikes.
It wouldn't be such an issue if German cars were cheap or as cheap to repair as many other brands but this is where the main problem is their repairs are often hugely expensive compared to other brands so its not just the frequency of faults but the cost of each repair. A car that is 3x as likely to go wrong with 3x the average repair cost is getting on 10x as expensive to repair.
Personally I think buying a higher quality engineered car that is significantly more reliable will mean people will keep the car longer and the UK will have less of a trading deficit as cars are a huge percentage of international trade this could massively assist our economy. I know people who buy Lexus cars typically keep them much longer than German brands.
Why put people off mid motors. Just promote the carrying of a couple of links of chain. Certainly anyone who has fitted their own will be competent to sort a broken chain by the side of the road.
You try telling that to my wife, or in fact most wives, they are most likely going to try to emasculate you!
(But my wife already knows the Bosch problems, so would never ride or buy one!)
After a long walk home, with or without links, tools, lights, rain clothing, they will still try to put your balls in a different room to your body!!
Some not so DIY men may do the same.....who knows.
Anyone who designs such a serious "single point of failure" in an e-bike, and then charges far more for the pleasure, should also not be allowed to add his brainless progeny to a world where we have enough of them already!!
Have a great Sunday.
Andy
"Single point failures" like a puncture, a collapsed wheel a broken fork etc., indeed who designs these bikes with such failings, more who would buy them?
Perhaps because these issues come with the territory, we accept them and in some cases can live with them with very little effort, a packet of tube patches or even a spare tube, even as said a couple of chain coupling links.
Seems odd to dismiss all that crank drives can offer by singularly picking out that one particular issue, whilst living with all the other single point issues out there.
Do these people not travel in cars with just the one engine, one transmission system, just the one steering system, or fly in planes with just the mono wing?
Perhaps because these issues come with the territory, we accept them and in some cases can live with them with very little effort, a packet of tube patches or even a spare tube, even as said a couple of chain coupling links.
Seems odd to dismiss all that crank drives can offer by singularly picking out that one particular issue, whilst living with all the other single point issues out there.
Do these people not travel in cars with just the one engine, one transmission system, just the one steering system, or fly in planes with just the mono wing?
Let me guess, you possibly own a mid motor bike? Is it a Bosch?
Failures that you pick out, except for the odd puncture, I have never had in over 60 years of bike riding! I do not consider any to be SPOF problems.
So they really do not play a part in normal bike riding for me personally!! One can forget them completely.....
I have never had a collapsed wheel, who has? Some who drive their steeds very hard?
I have never even had a broken spoke, maybe because I adjust them myself several times a year....
I have never broken front forks either? Or had problems with the rear suspension on innumerable bikes...
But as we all, sorry, most of us know, the chain is literally the weak link (pun intended!) on any bike. It is stressed quite heavily on normal bikes, especially with a fit and muscular rider, and needs good maintenance and lubrication.
Now on mid motor e-bikes,not only does the chain have to stand the strain of possibly a strong rider, on a bike that is FAR heavier than the non electrical bike, putting far more strain on this single component, but now it has to pass ALL the power of the motor as well! Its no wonder for most of us this was a poor design.
On a mid motor, the human toque is added to the motor torque.
Now a few manufacturers apparently agree with us, and are starting to design mid motor bikes with other forms of transmission, other than a thin bike chain. So the "Single point of failure" has been recognised by a great many and written about many times, so good for them. But the prices they are looking for sometimes, make even Bosch bikes start to look cheap!
Then there is the cheaper end of the e-bike market, with front or rear hub motors, that do not drive the chain, only the rider does! But this must seem like a "holiday" for the chain, as the rider only needs to add some power when needed, a lot of his ride will be mostly e-power.
This results in far, far less wear and tear on the chain parts, a more relaxed rider knowing that the SPOF has been completely erased, as if by mischance the chain breaks, he simply removes it and rides home on electric power only! Hopefully not having just made a fully drained battery, because then he will either walk, or need some replacement bits and a few simple tools.
I can only speak for myself that I only ever walked with a flat tyre, and since I have puncture proof tyres and inner tubes, it has never happened again! I stopped carrying both tools and puncture outfits for that reason.
I forget exactly when I had to replace (at home and planned for) the chain and the rear cassette, but it must have been well over 20,000 KMs, possibly nearer 27,000 and it was done just once in the 8 years, of a bike that was in use every day, several times, except when snow or ice was on the ground!
Then I walked!
regards
Andy
its not just bosch nearly every company is making it impossible to fix anything you own from phones to cars so only expensive dealer repairs are possible and no 3rd party parts would even work.
if you think bosch is bad shimano go one step further and means if you open the motors they can tell it has been opened and is then software locked and bricks the motor why peter wont service them anymore.
that means even the impulse motor is more fixable than a shimano one pmsl.
id say the most fixable mid drive motors are the yamaha ones as the controllers are available to buy and those motors are made to be serviceable.
anything with can bus coms and ur screwed! as giant use can bus for there Yamaha motors and batts.
even if bosch sold the bms for there batts as they all use the down tube version it is made in such a way to only way to get to the cells is to destroy the pack in the process!
the new 750w ones are £820
electricgarageshop.co.uk
if you think bosch is bad shimano go one step further and means if you open the motors they can tell it has been opened and is then software locked and bricks the motor why peter wont service them anymore.
that means even the impulse motor is more fixable than a shimano one pmsl.
id say the most fixable mid drive motors are the yamaha ones as the controllers are available to buy and those motors are made to be serviceable.
anything with can bus coms and ur screwed! as giant use can bus for there Yamaha motors and batts.
even if bosch sold the bms for there batts as they all use the down tube version it is made in such a way to only way to get to the cells is to destroy the pack in the process!
the new 750w ones are £820
Bosch Powertube 750Wh Horizontal Smart Battery - ElectricGarage
The Powertube 750Wh Horizontal smart battery is part of the Bosch Smart System. The frame mounted 750Wh, 36V horizontal Li-ion smart battery is compatible with 2022-23 electric bikes fitted with the Bosch Smart System. This battery is not fitted with mounting or locking end plates. Please check...
electricgarageshop.co.uk
lmfao and the retards keep buying it you dont even own your own microwave or anything connected to the internet these days it is a joke and ppl just dont see it until the **** hits the fan and the washing machine says no lol.
i also bet bosch will me monitoring all the new bosch gen 4 motors via that little app on ur phone, dongle detected and bricked at the push of a button/ algorithm via software learning.
if i want to overclock my washing machine then i will just rip the esc out of it and give it some woof power wise
So girls are too soft and incompetent to do a little maintenance? How gallant of you.
Perhaps there is an opportunity, for the black oil mark phobic and the incompetent, Roadside Recovery and Maintenance for cyclists.
On the other hand, when assessing the risk, what is the likelihood of the single point failure, regular maintenance should help with that, is it worth worrying about?
On a recent youtube video comparing e-mountain bikes it was stated the Shimano system could take third party batteries. I've not validated this myself but thought that was hugely beneficial. For the end consumer if Bosch or Shimano won't supply internal motor parts then you are forced to take to a dealer anyway but yes it is terrible that Shimano are bricking motors that have been opened. Is there no way around that once you know the issue? Does that mean there is a power source in the motor that will detect and remember the motor has been opened, if so if that power source becomes depleted like a coin cell or something would the motor self-brick? If there isn't a power source could you somehow bypass this and restore it before repowering the motor?its not just bosch nearly every company is making it impossible to fix anything you own from phones to cars so only expensive dealer repairs are possible and no 3rd party parts would even work.
if you think bosch is bad shimano go one step further and means if you open the motors they can tell it has been opened and is then software locked and bricks the motor why peter wont service them anymore.
that means even the impulse motor is more fixable than a shimano one pmsl.
id say the most fixable mid drive motors are the yamaha ones as the controllers are available to buy and those motors are made to be serviceable.
anything with can bus coms and ur screwed! as giant use can bus for there Yamaha motors and batts.
even if bosch sold the bms for there batts as they all use the down tube version it is made in such a way to only way to get to the cells is to destroy the pack in the process!
the new 750w ones are £820
Bosch Powertube 750Wh Horizontal Smart Battery - ElectricGarage
The Powertube 750Wh Horizontal smart battery is part of the Bosch Smart System. The frame mounted 750Wh, 36V horizontal Li-ion smart battery is compatible with 2022-23 electric bikes fitted with the Bosch Smart System. This battery is not fitted with mounting or locking end plates. Please check...
I accept that a company has the right to have a warranty seal which if broken means the warranty is gone but anything beyond that is totally unacceptable to me.
Probably best giving up guessing with that track record, 50% wrong.
I make no excuses for selecting a crank drive design, for our needs, on more than one front, the logical choice.
Clearly a crank drive e bike's chain or other drive system, takes more loading than a push bike's.
That's probably not a point missed by the better designers out there, with just like in my field, we select kit suited to the loadings seen in the application.
Just like you don't count wheels collapsing, forks failing, plane wings folding, the better designs recognise the importance of adequacy in the design selections made.
Not that I have a chain drive ebike, but an area where in appraising designs when purchasing I had noticed the chain in the hub geared bikes of interest were the robust sizes not the super thin used in our carbon Felts. I went Gates carbon drive based on in depth professional experience from specifying and the in-service use of the brand elsewhere. Largely to avoid "mess" with a bike we knew we had to frequently carry in our cars, along with its use without togging up in our cycling gear.
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If the users go off and then abuses the kit, working it outside its intended envelope, upping the torque etc, it hardly counts as a poor design concept, if they go into over stressing even to failure territory.
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You missed an important point (again!), I was talking generally, and mostly about my wife, and I still have the family jewels, even at 75!
Though today many women are technically superior to men (my youngest for example), and only need someone to point them in the right direction, which I personally find really great.
My eldest takes after her mother and requires that her husband does the bike and any car repairs! He is happy with the arrangement!
Having two daughters and a wife, I have always stuck up for women, I am personally against them being seen only as a SAHM......
I even have only had bitches as dogs since about 1970, when the daughter of our then male Dalmatian demonstrated brains and a far better idea of cleanliness that any male dog I have seen or owned.
Just like the human race in many ways!
I have had only Weimaraner bitches since she passed away, who also bring a high level of intelligence as well......No more male dogs here....
I wish you a great day, and maybe you should read with better comprehension in the future.....I do not pick on women, never have, never will do.
Though you have reminded me of an incident in October 1973, my company had a small sky scraper near to Euston. The winds around the blocks could make life a bit rough, and the main doors had very substantial return springs on them to try and keep them closed. They were difficult to open due to that.
This very attractive lady, who I (everyone) knew that she was gay, was following me, so being the gentleman that I am, I held one of the doors open for her.
Behind me were the usual people waiting on the lifts.
She came to a screeching halt right in the doorway, and berated me for holding the door as she was emancipated, and she did not need any man (she actually said male chauvinistic pig!) to hold a door open for her.
So I simply let it go, and it cracked her very hard on her left kneecap! She then limped into the foyer.....
The she further berated me for not waiting till she was finished speaking and out of the way of the doors!
The waiting crowd laughed long and loud and she shut up immediately!!!
Some people want everything BOTH ways, don't they!!
regards
Andy
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